Polearm Fighter Questions

[Mistwell]

I am in the process of putting together a Elven Fighter / Cleric 11. Right now, I have some questions about the Fighter aspect of the character, specifically the polearm related issues.

Character will be using a Glaive (Heavy blade and Polearm with Reach).

At-Will power: Footwork Lure: On a hit, you can shift 1 square and slide the target into the space you left.

How would that power work with a +1 Staggering Weapon (Adventurer’s Vault Pg. 78), which has as a property :

"When you use a power with the weapon keyword that slides a target, you can add this weapon’s enhancement bonus to the number of squares the target slides."

On a hit, would it:
A: Slide the target into the space you left, then add an additional space to the slide and slide them one further than the space you left due to the Staggering Weapon effect; or
B: Slide the target into the space you left, the Staggering Weapon has no effect because the power specifies the slide goes to the space you left.

 

[Mort_Q]

On first read I'd go with B, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

It still allows you an easy means to set up flanking for others, and pull people off the squishies.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, I don't think there is a definitive answer for that one. The two effects simply conflict with each other.

There could be a third way to resolve it. Slide the target a number of spaces equal to the enhancement bonus of the weapon. The logic being Footwork Lure definitely provides a slide effect, but not one that specifies a number of spaces, thus it is 0+enhancement spaces. The nice thing about that approach is it could be the better choice.

I think if it was up to me, I'd rule you can do either B or my solution, your choice on a case-by-case basis. Adding them together MIGHT be good, but it might either be too much of a good thing, or it might actually penalize the character sometimes.

 

[Mistwell]

On first read I'd go with B, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

It still allows you an easy means to set up flanking for others, and pull people off the squishies.

So if the power said "Slide the target 1" instead of "into the space you left", you would allow the additional +1 to the slide?

I am trying to figure out how the broader rule works. If the power specifies the square, you cannot alter it with something else, but if it is just a number, you can? Why would specifying the square "fix" the power in space more than specifying a number of squares moved?

 

[Mort_Q]

So if the power said "Slide the target 1" instead of "into the space you left", you would allow the additional +1 to the slide?

Yes.

I am trying to figure out how the broader rule works. If the power specifies the square, you cannot alter it with something else, but if it is just a number, you can? Why would specifying the square "fix" the power in space more than specifying a number of squares moved?

I'm not sure there is a broader rule in play... there are too many authors and and the editing is inconsistent... <grump grump>T here are lots of powers for forced movement, and they can be more or less specific. Slide vs Push vs Pull... any square adjacent... the space you left...

I'd guess the author, for the power in this case, was going for a specific flavour, nothing more... luring the enemy into the position you currently hold.

Does that override the magic item power? Don't know. As I said, that was my gut reaction on first read. It wouldn't be broken if you read it as A... so by the fun rule, perhaps it should be A

 

[Danceofmasks]

But the power seems to have never considered reach weapons in mind.

'cos really .. if you're at reach, and you have 3 friends interposed .. then you'd have to slide your target 4 squares to get them into the square you left.
But .. if you're allowed to runabout slide with obstacles, why can't you when there aren't any obstacles?
Or .. sliding them out of the dungeon, off the grand canyon, the long way around up the slope, back into the dungeon, into the square you just left?

At the least, it probably should have the word "directly" in there someplace.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

The problem here is not with the weapon property, that's fine, but with the Fighter powers. Normally, when you're pushing or sliding someone, the game doesn't care where they go. That's the point, it gives players choices about things.

The problem with the Fighter powers is that they do make certain assumptions. First off, Tide of Iron says you "shift into the square that they vacated" IIRC, so that one actually works okay most of the time with multi-square pushes. You just only shift forward one square, even if you pushed two. The problem though is that you're supposed to push 1 and then shift into the square they left, but what if you were using a reach weapon? If they were two squares away when you push them 1 square, you would have to shift 2 squares to get into the square they left.

Footwork Lure produces a similar issue, but more complicated because slides can be in any direction. You're supposed to slide them to the square you left, which presents the same problem with reach weapons that you can use them from 2 squares away. Combine this with abilities that let you slide more than 2 squares and it gets even worse, because they're supposed to end in your former square, but then what about the "extra" slide movement left over?

For me, I would just say that it will work with any power as long as there are no additional rides specifying where the slide must end. So for Footwork Lure it wouldn't work, but that's about it. I think that's reasonably fair, as it just means it's going to be an awesome ability to use with encounter and daily powers, but not something that will get abused and allow you to do stuff like fling around an Ancient Red Dragon with an At-Will power.

@Danceofmasks: BTW, while you example involving the Grand Canyon was somewhat facetious, it does bring up one issue. What if there was a 5 foot wide pit that ran the entire length of a room between you and your enemy. You have a reach weapon and use Footwork Lure...what happens? Yeah, you can slide him 1 into the pit and all that, but he's supposed to end in the square you left, not just get slid 1. Strange cases like these are what make think that they didn't properly consider reach weapons when making these powers.

 

[Danceofmasks]

I reckon it's an issue of a reasonable attempt.
You tried to slide them, they just fell ... ok, that's not a good one.
How about
You tried to slide them, but someone else had an interrupt that slams them into a cage along the way?

Or .. just a ready vs. the first square of the slide.

The thing about the pit would grant them a save to fall prone and end your slide anyhow .. the whole hindering terrain thing.
So it's not as if "they never got into the square I vacated" is without precedent.

'cos a slide ... hmm .. even a pull, you can always pull in a roundabout way ... each square is closer than the last ... so diagonally to the right, then diagonally to the left .. through a square filled with wall of fire.
Legal enough, even if "directly" is a clause, though the hindering terrain thing might pop up again.

It's far from the only movement-based silliness, either.
Take Fearless Rescue (warlord daily 1, Martial Power)
That one really should say "move up to your speed if you can get there" or something similar ... 'cos what if you're in a maze, and within 5 squares of the trigger, but need to move 70 to get there?
'cos by the effect of the power, you may want to provoke as many OAs as you can, so there has to be a movement limit anyhow.

 

[Mistwell]

All this pits and slide from 2 squares away is interesting...but it doesn't help with the question posed.


Can you add to this particular slide with an additional power, or not? And if not, why not? Looking for a RAW interpretation.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

All this pits and slide from 2 squares away is interesting...but it doesn't help with the question posed.


Can you add to this particular slide with an additional power, or not? And if not, why not? Looking for a RAW interpretation.

Sorry. I would say B. My post was basically trying to say in a roundabout way that the At-Wills sort of screw up some of those abilities. I think it's better to just not apply them there when they'll mess things up, and leave them for other abilities that slide. Since you're talking about a polearm/spear type weapon, there are plenty in the PHB and Martial Power that allow slides with no extra language about where they slide to. For those powers, it would work fine.