Polearm Gamble - Rules Clarification

[cerealman]

So, talking with my DM today and another fellow player in our group, and we are slightly confused over the wording and intent of PG. Keep in mind, some of these questions are mine, and some seem might be obvious, but I'm just asking for clarity sake.

"Polearm gamble
Prereq: STR 15, WIS 15
Benefit: When a nonadjacent enemy *enters* a square adjacent to
you, you can make an opportunity attack with a polearm against the
enemy, but you grant combat advantage to that enemy until the end
of the enemy's turn."

So, the questions I have are as follows:

1. Does this override the normal OA rules for shifting, teleportation and what not? Would seem overpowered, but which ruling is the more specific ruling.

2. Does this take place when the person "enters" the square, or when they "leave" the square? Basically, is he adjacent to me when I make my OA, or is he still considered non-adjacent. OAs occur before the move takes place, but in this case, it reads as if the OA takes place after the move has taken place (Basically, OAs are Immediate Interrupts and PG reads as if it makes the OA an Immediate Reaction).

Just trying to get a clear understanding of the intent of the ability.

The DM's thoughts are basically as follows:

"General: Moving provokes an OA when leaving a square.
Specific: Shifting (a type of Movement) does not provoke an OA.

General: Reach weapons cannot make an OA at the extent of their reach, only when the target is adjacent.
Specific: Polearm Gambit allows a reach weapon to make an OA at the extent of its reach, if the target is moving to a square that is adjacent to the polearm wielder."

This makes sense, but we are still curious if this is the correct interpretation.

 

[Kordeth]

1. Does this override the normal OA rules for shifting, teleportation and what not? Would seem overpowered, but which ruling is the more specific ruling.

Shifting specifically says you don't provoke OAs when shifting out of a square, so there's no conflict there.

Teleporting says "your movement doesn't provoke" period--and it's specifically defined as "instantaneous," so I'd rule that the target never actually "enters" a square adjacent to you anyways. So no, no Polearm Gamble on a teleporting enemy.

2. Does this take place when the person "enters" the square, or when they "leave" the square? Basically, is he adjacent to me when I make my OA, or is he still considered non-adjacent. OAs occur before the move takes place, but in this case, it reads as if the OA takes place after the move has taken place (Basically, OAs are Immediate Interrupts and PG reads as if it makes the OA an Immediate Reaction).

It's an OA and it works like every other OA in the game--it interrupts the provoking action, meaning you smack the target before he completes his move. If it happened after the shift, the feat would say "you make make a melee basic attack as an immediate reaction."

"General: Moving provokes an OA when leaving a square.
Specific: Shifting (a type of Movement) does not provoke an OA.

Technically correct, except that Shifting has a very specific definition of when it doesn't provoke OAs, which doesn't apply to Polearm Gamble.

General: Reach weapons cannot make an OA at the extent of their reach, only when the target is adjacent.
Specific: Polearm Gambit allows a reach weapon to make an OA at the extent of its reach, if the target is moving to a square that is adjacent to the polearm wielder."

Correct.

 

[mach1.9pants]

To me the design intent is to give a OA for a reach user ala 3E. when someone moves from a square 2 away from you to adjacent you get an OA. However (if that is the case) it is very poorly worded!
So as it stands:
1. I think it overides the teleport/shift thing. They normally don't provoke OAs but this specifically says it does.edit: as pointed out below about shifting
2. when the person enters the square. i.e. they are in the adjacent square and before they carry out any other actions (like their basic attack if they are charging) make the OA. That, to me, seems very clear. It is when the enemy enters the square, you have to be in it to enter it. Edit: changed my mind on re-reading it is an interrupt!
So I don't agree with your DM Even if that is the intent of the designer as written.....Nope
And I don't think it is to powerful, as mentioned in another thread, it is paragon tier and gives the enemy CA....a BIG risk IMO for a basic attack.

 

[The Grackle]

1. Does this override the normal OA rules for shifting, teleportation and what not? Would seem overpowered, but which ruling is the more specific ruling.

Specific beats general, so I'd say yes. That would mean teleporting, forced movement, standing up, and falling from the sky and landing adjacent to you all provoke. It definitely beats shifting b/c that reads: "If you shift out of a square adjacent to an enemy, you don’t provoke an opportunity attack," which doesn't apply here.

2. Does this take place when the person "enters" the square, or when they "leave" the square? Basically, is he adjacent to me when I make my OA, or is he still considered non-adjacent. OAs occur before the move takes place, but in this case, it reads as if the OA takes place after the move has taken place (Basically, OAs are Immediate Interrupts and PG reads as if it makes the OA an Immediate Reaction).

It's an interrupt, so you attack first. If it lives, it moves adjacent to you. If the creature dies, it doesn't move adjacent to you, but you still got to kill it for trying.

 

[The Grackle]

Teleporting says "your movement doesn't provoke" period--and it's specifically defined as "instantaneous," so I'd rule that the target never actually "enters" a square adjacent to you anyways. So no, no Polearm Gamble on a teleporting enemy

What's more specific? The rules for teleporting or the wording of a feat?

 

[Maximillian]

What's more specific? The rules for teleporting or the wording of a feat?

I don't think it will function against teleportation, and not because of the specificity or generality of the rules. It's because an OA is an interrupt, and the attack cannot occur before the teleport, because the target is not in a valid location.

This, I will admit, is interpretation on my part and not taken from text. Polearm Gambit doesn't mention that a target must be in a square you can reach in order to perform the attack, so a strict interpretation would be that you can attack the teleporting creature even if they were on another continent.

 

[The Grackle]

This, I will admit, is interpretation on my part and not taken from text. Polearm Gambit doesn't mention that a target must be in a square you can reach in order to perform the attack, so a strict interpretation would be that you can attack the teleporting creature even if they were on another continent.

And if you killed them w the OA, their corpse would remain on the other continent!

Another oddity is that if the enemy were already adjacent to the Polearm Gambler and shifted to another adjacent square (to set up a flank or something) then the shifting rules DO come into play. Which is more specific? the rules for shifting? or the rules for the feat?

 

[The Grackle]

This, I will admit, is interpretation on my part and not taken from text. Polearm Gambit doesn't mention that a target must be in a square you can reach in order to perform the attack, so a strict interpretation would be that you can attack the teleporting creature even if they were on another continent.

And if you killed them w the OA, their corpse would remain on the other continent!

 

[Zaruthustran]

There's a thread about this here, including a fighter/warpriest build and a brief discussion on the "timing" of the OA.

In a nutshell: a fighter with a reach weapon and Polearm Gamble can fend off enemies, preventing them from moving adjacent.

1. Does this override the normal OA rules for shifting, teleportation and what not? Would seem overpowered, but which ruling is the more specific ruling.

The way you phrase this question makes it difficult to answer. The OA from Polearm Gamble functions exactly like any other OA, once the OA is initiated. All Polearm Gamble does is allow to be initiated in a circumstance not normally allowed. Teleportation and shifting are not covered below:

2. Does this take place when the person "enters" the square, or when they "leave" the square? Basically, is he adjacent to me when I make my OA, or is he still considered non-adjacent. OAs occur before the move takes place, but in this case, it reads as if the OA takes place after the move has taken place (Basically, OAs are Immediate Interrupts and PG reads as if it makes the OA an Immediate Reaction).

You're correct that OAs are interrupts.

The OA from Polearm Gamble is triggered when an enemy enters an adjacent square, but since OAs interrupt, the OA takes place before the enemy resolves "enter an adjacent square." When you make your OA, he is in whatever square he was in when he triggered your OA/he is in the square where he initiated the action that moved him into an adjacent square.

The DM's thoughts are basically as follows:

"General: Moving provokes an OA when leaving a square.
Specific: Shifting (a type of Movement) does not provoke an OA.

It's true that shifting, itself, does not provoke an OA. Polearm Gamble, however, grants an OA when an enemy enters an adjacent square. It could be that Polearm Gamble doesn't care how the enemy got there: move, shift, push, pull, whatever, and is triggered when an enemy enters the adjacent square. But I think "enter" implies intent, and therefore the normal rules for involuntary movement and OAs still apply (in other words, no OA from Polearm Gamble if involuntarily moved into adjacent square).

General: Reach weapons cannot make an OA at the extent of their reach, only when the target is adjacent.
Specific: Polearm Gambit allows a reach weapon to make an OA at the extent of its reach, if the target is moving to a square that is adjacent to the polearm wielder."

That's correct. Which means that teleport (assuming that the enemy is out of reach when he teleports) is a way to defeat polearm gamble: the enemy enters an adjacent square, which triggers the OA interrupt, but since the enemy is out of reach no OA may actually be taken.

 

[Zurai]

What's more specific? The rules for teleporting or the wording of a feat?

Teleportation is a general rule that applies to any ability with the Teleportation keyword. Polearm gamble is a specific override of a set of general rules (namely, movement and opportunity attacks).