polearm tripping

[Tellerve]

Hmm, I can't search, otherwise I would've. But is it just flavor text that some polearms talk about tripping and dropping them if you fail? I don't really see why you couldn't do this with any polearm with reach. And generally I would see that with a normal non reach melee weapon your conceviably using a lot of your body for a trip and hence they get to try and trip you back.

Comments?

Tellerve

 

[Pielorinho]

Unless a weapon specifically states that you can use it to trip, you cannot use it to trip. If you are not armed with such a weapon, all trip attacks must be made with your own body; you can therefore only trip into areas within your natural (not weapon-enhanced) reach.

Daniel

 

[Tellerve]

So then it was just a balance issue. I can understand them going for that but find their choices odd. Like the guisarme getting to be able to trip "because of its curved blade". That strikes me as funny considering its picture versus the ranseur for example.

Does this mean you can't disarm with the guisarme, since it doesn't have any mention of disarming whereas the ranseur does?

Tellerve

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

In 3.0, you can attempt a disarm with any weapon, but certain weapons (ranseur, whip, flail) grant a bonus to disarm attempts. Regardless of weapon used, you suffer an AoO unless you have the Improved Disarm feat (unlike trip -- "tripping" weapons do not cause an AoO on trip attempts).

In 3.5 ... ?

 

[Tellerve]

d. Trip attempts: Trip is clarified in 3.5 to be an unarmed touch attack (which provokes an AoO), *unless* you have the Improved Trip feat (in which case there's no AoO for the attempt), or if you're using a weapon specifically designed to trip (such as the halberd), in which case it's an armed attack and you don't provoke the AoO. If you're using a tripping weapon, and would be tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon instead.


That's from your compiled post Olgar. So, now tripping is more how I've always envisioned it, more of a real leg trip, a shoulder slam that knocks them to the ground or whatever, but it is unarmed attack. So you get AoO unless your IUS'ing, have the improved trip feat, or using a tripping weapon.

However, it still brings up an annoyance for me in terms of a "tripping" weapon. As a halbred is a tripping weapon with its tiny prong coming of the back side while a ranseur which has flanges of steel coming off both sides isn't a tripping weapon. To me, the same design that would help entangle a weapon for disarming would do equally well for tangling legs.

The same thing pops up with most any polearm in my opinion could be useful against a charge, but for some reason only long spear and halbred are good for that. I really wouldn't want to set a weapon against a charging horse that didn't have reach...eek!

Tellerve

EDIT: I think perhaps in my next campaign most all weapons with these annoying +'s and such will be removed. I'm reminded of how d20 modern has most all the pistol very similar, because basically they are. In the same way most polearms are similar in most respects, more a cosmetic choice. That or go through and give all of them bonus versus charging things, and if they look like they'd be good for disarming and tripping give them a bonus.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

My ? was for disarm, actually.

As to trip, don't forget realism <> D&D. My guess for tripping weapons is that the backward-curled spike is used to "pull" an opponent's feet out from under him (while a ranseur might require some sort of pushing mortion) ... but I really do try not to assign too much reality to D&D.

I think the polearms are designed the way there are due to balance tradeoffs. You can get a trip weapon, or a disarm weapon, but you can't get trip & disarm with reach unless you take a whip, which has it's own drawbacks. If you want more damage, you get a glaive, which can neither trip nor disarm. TANSTAAFL, you know.

I like the polearm mix, myself.

 

[Tellerve]

Right, well you had put a question in your post so I guess I was led astray. I think disarm was fairly well worded in 3.0, unlike trip.

Ok, as I've said, I know why they did it, I just don't like it Besides, they have a spiked chain, granted you have to pay a feat, but it does tripping, disarm, reach, and close up combat! Woohoo! I really will stop 'cause I'm apparently just beating a dead horse, with the fact that the ranseur with its back metal arching blades should be useful in tripping.

I just know from personal experience in gaming groups as both a player and dm, no one ever uses polearms. And that's a shame, and I'm hoping to rectify that with my next character. I'm sure some out there do use them, and good for you all!

Tellerve

EDIT: Here's a question. If you have improved trip and a polearm without the apparent "Tripping" designation, can you then trip at range? Or is that improved trip you taking one of your hands off the weapon placing it on said bad guy, your leg behind his and pushing firmly?

EDIT2: Dang, daniel already answered that question kinda in the 2nd post.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I've had a desire to play a guisarme-wielding fighter for a while now. Improved Trip is just too fun.

I sent some guisarme-wielding orcs against my players today, but between grease and glitterdust, the orcs never got into the fight. I'll have to try again another time.

The halberd fighters from two sessions back worked quite well, though. Trip attack ... Improved trip ... smash, PC prone. Very nice.

I had an NPC set up for the party this session with a halberd and the whole nine yards: Combat Reflexes, Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Spring Attack, Whirlwind attack, etc. The plan was to spring attack making trip attacks until cornered, then do whirlwind disarm attacks, followed by trip attacks as attacks of opportunity when they went to retrieve their weapons.

But the party got cold feet and decided not to attack. Sometimes the rats can just smell a trap.

Edit: even though Mr. NPC had a halberd, it would be great with a guisarme, too. PC approaches into reach range, draws an AoO. Execute Trip attack, follow up with disarm. PC is now prone, at reach range, with no weapon. Next round: PC ME to retrieve weapon (draws AoO); move equivalent to stand. Fighter executes trip attack againt, follows up with damage. Fun. Even better in 3.5, when you can Whirlwind Attack with a polearm, and take multiple AoOs against the same PC (though you can't use a trip as part of Whirlwind in 3.5).

 

[Tellerve]

LOL, awesome. High level fighter goodness

Yeah, in the campaign I'm playing in now, or rather the group, they do a lot more charging than my old group. I guess my old group didn't much care for the -2 ac, and were fine with one more round to get up to them or whatever the case.

The reason I'm pondering most of these questions is for a character I'm creating for my good friend who is going to do a long term campaign that'll only be played a few times a year but at marathon durations at each time. So I want a fun interesting character, of which I already have set up a great backstory and everything. He's a bounty hunter and I was thinking of more interesting weapons to trip and disarm with...hence the polearm questions. Everything is looking pretty well, and I think I'll talk with him about the tripping thing and see what he thinks. I did think about just having him use a halbred, but I liked the idea of reach. Also, kinda random, but if you saw one of the animatrix with the samurai, the dark male samurai had a weird ranseur double weapon thing that just was really cool looking. Bet you could trip with that baby!

Tellerve

EDIT: wha no whirlwind trips, why not? That is totally what you could do with a polearm. Wait wait, logic ack logic stop stop!! lol

 

[Darklone]

So they totally screwed 3.0 trip and made it like disarm? Hmm. Well, ok.