thecasualoblivion
First Post
Yes:
1. Party enters cave
2. Party engages 6 Hobgoblins
3. Party goes home due to low HP.
1. Party enters cave
2. Party engages 6 Hobgoblins
3. Party goes home due to low HP.
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D&D 5E [Poll] 15 Minute Adventuring Day, 5e, and You
- Thread starter I'm A Banana
- Start date
Rhenny
Adventurer
Although the adventure sessions (2 of them) were not terribly long (we only played for 2 1/2 hours each), in both sessions the players achieved a reasonable goal, so I would not call it a "15 min work day."
In first session, they roleplayed a beginning, took on 3 groups of Goblins, fought the Ogre, and then were tapped. That seemed right for 4 (we only played with 4) 1st level PCs. I was surprised they beat the Ogre, but they were able to range it for a round, and then it fell into a trip wire.
The 2nd session was shorter, but they accomplished a goal. They roleplayed a little with the Goblin Chieftan, and the forced their way into the Hobgoblin area to look for prisoners from town (the merchant and his wife and their guards). They had a large battle with Hobgoblins (9 of them in the sleeping room); then they quietly made their way to the prison area took on the two guards and were able to free the prisoners and bring them back to town via the Goblin tunnels. More roleplaying back at town and the session ended.
I think that the PCs will be able to push further when the gain levels and add HD to their healing.
No problems with "15 minute work day"
In first session, they roleplayed a beginning, took on 3 groups of Goblins, fought the Ogre, and then were tapped. That seemed right for 4 (we only played with 4) 1st level PCs. I was surprised they beat the Ogre, but they were able to range it for a round, and then it fell into a trip wire.
The 2nd session was shorter, but they accomplished a goal. They roleplayed a little with the Goblin Chieftan, and the forced their way into the Hobgoblin area to look for prisoners from town (the merchant and his wife and their guards). They had a large battle with Hobgoblins (9 of them in the sleeping room); then they quietly made their way to the prison area took on the two guards and were able to free the prisoners and bring them back to town via the Goblin tunnels. More roleplaying back at town and the session ended.
I think that the PCs will be able to push further when the gain levels and add HD to their healing.
No problems with "15 minute work day"
I answered Yes. In fact, my players explicitly pursue the 15-minute adventuring day as their stated strategy! Once they've spent any per-day special abilities at all, they figure they might as well blow their wad and go rest. This often happens with the first encounter of the day, although sometimes there are a few mini-encounters first.
When they retreat to the woods and rest I do roll for random encounters but they've been lucky and it has just never came up in 6 whole sessions. (And I'm not going to fudge the roll, either. I'm trying to run a very "impartial" game as that seems more in the old-school spirit.) So there's generally no down-side to resting, and a huge up-side.
Conversely, death comes swiftly in the playtest. So in a bad situation, it really is helpful to unload as many spells/powers as you need to stay alive. One crit from a charging orc could end you, and at that point holding unspent dailies seems pretty silly. It also means that adventuring without a full tank of dailies is super risky. Ever-present death is a huge down-side, with no apparent up-side (you generally get the same treasure and XP by returning the next morning, except in the rare case that the monsters flee their lair during the night).
So it's pretty clear to me that the game has strong incentives towards only adventuring when full up, and no disincentives to resting. The 15-minute adventuring day is back with a vengeance.
-- 77IM
When they retreat to the woods and rest I do roll for random encounters but they've been lucky and it has just never came up in 6 whole sessions. (And I'm not going to fudge the roll, either. I'm trying to run a very "impartial" game as that seems more in the old-school spirit.) So there's generally no down-side to resting, and a huge up-side.
Conversely, death comes swiftly in the playtest. So in a bad situation, it really is helpful to unload as many spells/powers as you need to stay alive. One crit from a charging orc could end you, and at that point holding unspent dailies seems pretty silly. It also means that adventuring without a full tank of dailies is super risky. Ever-present death is a huge down-side, with no apparent up-side (you generally get the same treasure and XP by returning the next morning, except in the rare case that the monsters flee their lair during the night).
So it's pretty clear to me that the game has strong incentives towards only adventuring when full up, and no disincentives to resting. The 15-minute adventuring day is back with a vengeance.
-- 77IM
Pretty much my experience too. We go in a cave, we fight a group or two of 4-6 critters, we go back to town and rest, rinse, repeat. First few play tests, it was because of low hit points. Next few play tests, everyone blew their dailies, so at least we felt like we were doing something before we ran out of hit points *and* dailies, and went back to town.
The other option seemed to be, fight two goblins, next room, two more goblins, next room, two more goblins, next room, two more goblins, leave dungeon and play dodgeball with goblin heads because that sounds like more fun.
Connorsrpg
Adventurer
It did not happen in our 5 session playtest. (But, I must admit, it has never been a problem in our games at all for many reasons, including of course, players that do not play that way).
Reasons that may contrinute to it not happening in our game:
1. Random Encs: Not totally random - I have a chart for each 'region/realm' (in fact I have a system for determining and organising realms from tribes to empires). So, creatures from an area 'may' come along anyway.
2. Players roll the Random Encounters!: Like [MENTION=12377]77IM[/MENTION] above I try to keep it impartial. I don't just keep throwing random encounters at the party, but they know there is always a chance. (Again - my realms sheets inc how 'Dangerous' an area is which modifies chance of encounters [an expansion on the Pathfinder concept of 'Comunity Modifiers']).
3. Cumulative Random Encounters: Getting involved in a fight or doing something obvious like lighting a large fire or making lots of noise automatically means an extra random encounter is rolled. So one encounter can surely lead to another.
4. Other NPCs and plots may still go on. Kind of a time limit thing. For eg if prisoners are being held, I might rule each night there is a 50% one is killed and eaten, so if the PCs delay too long then they will have less to save (and the survivors may let them know about it). In any case the enemy go on acting as normal.
5. Enemies encountered act: If PCs back off after fighting a group without finishing it, well, that group will likely 'do something'. Again, I am likely to write a few options and roll randomly or use the good ol' "#1 Rule of Dungeoncraft" and give a 50% chance the attacked enemy will do each idea. So, say the PCs 1/2 finished the hobgoblins I might roll 50% for each of the following (so more than one may occur) OR just choose one:
A) Hobgoblins double their watch
B) Hobs send out a search/hunting party for the PCs
C) Hobs fortify their position and prepare for PCs return
D) Hobs pack up and leave (perhaps leaving signs, like dead prisoners that that have gone)
E) Hobs seek alliance with another tribe
F) Hobs seek out PCs for truce or simply cast captives out so there is no reason for PCs to bother them.
Those are a few egs off the top of my head, but the point is that the 'enemy' and 'setting' go on around the PCs no matter their choices. The world and everything in it doesn't rest and if they have already been encountered, then they do 'do something'.
Note also, that for our Caves of Chaos playtest, 'town' was a few days away. They went back once to return freed prisoners and ended up buying more gear and recruiting more people. There was a ruined keep 6 hours away, though one night PCs simply hid in the woods (after setting up a diversion - making it look like they went the other way (along a river)). So, yes, when they do rest, my players are thinking of who may be after them if they have stirred the nest
I prefer not to use metagaming to encourage my players (but can't recall having to do so), though for a playtest I might consider it.
Reasons that may contrinute to it not happening in our game:
1. Random Encs: Not totally random - I have a chart for each 'region/realm' (in fact I have a system for determining and organising realms from tribes to empires). So, creatures from an area 'may' come along anyway.
2. Players roll the Random Encounters!: Like [MENTION=12377]77IM[/MENTION] above I try to keep it impartial. I don't just keep throwing random encounters at the party, but they know there is always a chance. (Again - my realms sheets inc how 'Dangerous' an area is which modifies chance of encounters [an expansion on the Pathfinder concept of 'Comunity Modifiers']).
3. Cumulative Random Encounters: Getting involved in a fight or doing something obvious like lighting a large fire or making lots of noise automatically means an extra random encounter is rolled. So one encounter can surely lead to another.
4. Other NPCs and plots may still go on. Kind of a time limit thing. For eg if prisoners are being held, I might rule each night there is a 50% one is killed and eaten, so if the PCs delay too long then they will have less to save (and the survivors may let them know about it). In any case the enemy go on acting as normal.
5. Enemies encountered act: If PCs back off after fighting a group without finishing it, well, that group will likely 'do something'. Again, I am likely to write a few options and roll randomly or use the good ol' "#1 Rule of Dungeoncraft" and give a 50% chance the attacked enemy will do each idea. So, say the PCs 1/2 finished the hobgoblins I might roll 50% for each of the following (so more than one may occur) OR just choose one:
A) Hobgoblins double their watch
B) Hobs send out a search/hunting party for the PCs
C) Hobs fortify their position and prepare for PCs return
D) Hobs pack up and leave (perhaps leaving signs, like dead prisoners that that have gone)
E) Hobs seek alliance with another tribe
F) Hobs seek out PCs for truce or simply cast captives out so there is no reason for PCs to bother them.
Those are a few egs off the top of my head, but the point is that the 'enemy' and 'setting' go on around the PCs no matter their choices. The world and everything in it doesn't rest and if they have already been encountered, then they do 'do something'.
Note also, that for our Caves of Chaos playtest, 'town' was a few days away. They went back once to return freed prisoners and ended up buying more gear and recruiting more people. There was a ruined keep 6 hours away, though one night PCs simply hid in the woods (after setting up a diversion - making it look like they went the other way (along a river)). So, yes, when they do rest, my players are thinking of who may be after them if they have stirred the nest
I prefer not to use metagaming to encourage my players (but can't recall having to do so), though for a playtest I might consider it.
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CM
Adventurer
Both playtest sessions I have played so far have resulted in one extremely long chained encounter where goblins or hobgoblins flee for reinforcements from surrounding rooms. The party survives multiple waves, chases down survivors, then retreats to rest, having blown all their healing available without necessarily expending all their offensive magic. It actually has played much like an elaborate 4e encounter, except at the end the party has to retreat for a full rest rather than just take a short rest and press on. 
So far I am unimpressed.
So far I am unimpressed.
n00bdragon
First Post
Both playtest sessions I have played so far have resulted in one extremely long chained encounter where goblins or hobgoblins flee for reinforcements from surrounding rooms. The party survives multiple waves, chases down survivors, then retreats to rest, having blown all their healing available without necessarily expending all their offensive magic. It actually has played much like an elaborate 4e encounter, except at the end the party has to retreat for a full rest rather than just take a short rest and press on.
So far I am unimpressed.
This has been my exact experience as well. The "encounters" are just insufferable meatgrinders until a human shield wall is formed around the last bad guy so it can't escape (or the DM takes pity and just has it not run away from reinforcements). And without any sort of choices to break it up aside from "I move. I attack. I move back." Every. Single. Turn. just no thanks.
Connorsrpg
Adventurer
[MENTION=18340]CM[/MENTION]
Sounds frustrating (and boring) but I am interested what your vote was.
The Caves of Chaos could turn out that way, but it doesn't have to. I know I feared this too as a GM and took a lot of prep steps to change things up. I have also seen a lot of threads on interesting things players did too (rather than just try and mass fight their way through every cave).
I won't go into specifics (I have a thread called "Our 5 Session Playtest" and with some tools and options for DMs to make the experience a little more interesting). Cheers.
Sounds frustrating (and boring) but I am interested what your vote was.
The Caves of Chaos could turn out that way, but it doesn't have to. I know I feared this too as a GM and took a lot of prep steps to change things up. I have also seen a lot of threads on interesting things players did too (rather than just try and mass fight their way through every cave).
I won't go into specifics (I have a thread called "Our 5 Session Playtest" and with some tools and options for DMs to make the experience a little more interesting). Cheers.
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Libramarian
Adventurer
Yes I did actually. I think the reason was a combination of an inexperienced DM, the fact that it only takes one night to get full HP, and the monsters seemed to hit the PCs quite often.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Tony Vargas said:
But you voted "Yes"?
Not.
Cool.
Dude.
But sweet, it seems like we're getting some reports from the minority that seems to be having 'em! [MENTION=50304]mlund[/MENTION], [MENTION=6689371]n00bdragon[/MENTION], [MENTION=65726]Mengu[/MENTION], [MENTION=18340]CM[/MENTION], I'm seeing a common thread of "One big grindy explosion of monsters sucked down ALL of our healing/HP's!" Does that seem accurate?
If so, it seems like maybe some issue in the adventure/encounter design is leading to this...
I wonder if part of that is working as intended, in that those big grindy encounters (though they may need some work in making them fun) were what more cautious parties rip through in a day, just all crammed into one encounter. As intended, maybe, but it's clearly not been a very satisfying experience for you dudes, so I wonder how those big encounters could be kicked into a more fun shape...
I know my groups haven't encountered that, but I've been very explicit about the "If you let them escape, they will get reinforcements, and this will snowball and maybe decimate you," nature of the adventure, basically just telling them that (they're playing trained adventurers, after all!). In my groups, this has lead to a lot of careful play, blocking off exits, using scouts, and luring out hostiles. It sounds like maybe that playstyle could be reinforced a bit more, to help overcome the snowball tendency? Or maybe the designers should probably face up to the idea that 15 goblins over 3 encounters (or whatever) does not have equal pacing to 15 goblins in 1 encounter, and try to make the latter a bit more dynamic somehow?
[MENTION=59096]thecasualoblivion[/MENTION] 's experience seems like a pretty archetypal 15MAD, especially if they did that over and over again.
It sounds like the main antidote people are using is random encounters, and it's interesting that Caves of Chaos just really gives very broad DM advice for that. And that wouldn't necessarily help those who hit the blinds with big encounters and then have to rest...they'd just be murdering party members!
Cool feedback, folks, keep it comin'!
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