Poll: Historical Kit & realistic rules

[Drifter Bob]

I've only got as far as the first page. This thread is going to need a little time to work through. But it looks interesting. It looks like a way of improving the realism without necessarily cluttering up the game with too many rules, charts etc. I'm hoping that you have a better way of handling disengaging and falling back type actions.

I also like the sound of the universal group plus historical period modules. A nice way of cleaning out all the rapiers, katanas and plate mail from your Classical Greek and Roman setting. And stocking up on javlin, spears and shortsword appropriate fighting feats. If you want to.

I'll be back later.

doghead.

Thanks for your post

You raise a point here which was something I actualy hadn't anticipated until we started this; despite all the extra weapons and armor added to the list as a whole, when you divide it up by region and historical epoch, you actually get a smaller, more managable amount of kit (which incidentally balances better within the historical subset). It really cuts down on the 'clutter' as you say.

Of course, another thing you can do is give different kind of kit to different countries or regions within your campaign world. One of my original inspiratoins for doing this was 20 years ago when I saw a great picture in the old monster manual (I think) of this guy kitted out like a Greek Hoplite fighting several kobolds. He had a hoplite shield (featuring an ant head image) and a Greek helmet. I was drawn to the picture, and to the idea of the Greek warrior facing off against these pesky varmints of Germanic legend. It was very compelling to me. I was later kind of depressed to realise that within the rules at least, there was no way to really differentiate your character as being from a specific culture like that (of course, you could role play it and write it up in your characters background, but I think I was looking for something a bit more crunchy).

So theoretically, with this set of rules, you could have your bronze age Greece type nation, your Imperial Roman nation across the high mountain range, then maybe further away overseas, a medieval Britain, on the northern fringes of which exist a nordic viking land, and far to the south, something like Renaissance India; each with their own characteristic types of weapons and fighting styles, with their own strengths and weaknesses (not all neessarily being equally effective).

And of course, widely travelled adventurers could have the pick of the best techniqus and gear from every country or region they had visited....

I thnk this ties in well with a Conan / Elric / Fafhred inspired heroic campaign as it does with some purely historial setting (because authors like howard and moorcock and leiber were themselves drawing directly from history).

Don't forget to check out some of the sample artwork:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=95368&page=1&pp=20

DB

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I'd absolutley love some bronze age and classical age material.

 

[TheLostSoul]

One of the most interesting neolithinc European weapons I encountered were some references to boomerang - like throwing sticks. The romans refer to the celts using something called a "catea", the egyptians and Indians had their own versions, and there were some archeological finds, I think one near denmark, where they found a throwing stick which looks just like a boomerang.

I was wondering what you would list as the most important neolithic weapons.

Some of the ones we have included are

rocks (much more effective than people realise!)
slings
bows (long bows apparently go way back in scandinavia)
spears
javelins
"atlatls" and other spear throwers
sword-like hardwood clubs
stone chip edged wooden 'protoswords'
stone axes
stone hammers and maces
stone knives
jawbone axe

The boomerangs found in Scandinavia are not boomerangs at all. It has been proven, both through archaological finds and through ethnological studies, that they are a part of a thrusting harpoon. Just like the harpoons that eskimoes use (at least in Greenland, but I think that their use is widespread).

Bows in Scandinavia goes far back into the mesolithicum, with a wide variety in arrowheads. They range from very heavy, to the exquisite neolithic arrowheads. Some of these are just as impressive as our flint daggers. They appear to have been mainly a hunting weapon, but knowledge of warfare in neolithicum is very weak and very discussed.

The flint dagger (and to a certain extend, the copper/bronze dagger) were probably the main weapon in neolithic combat. They were at the same time regarded as a status symbol and were often buried with their (presumed) owners and were often sacrificed.

The early sword have also been used in combat, but only after the first copper/bronze swords and daggers have made their appearance. There are two main types: The flint edged sword and the flint-carved sword. The flint edged sword had a core of wood or bone and had small pieces of flint compromising the edge. The flint carved swords are extremely rare and is carved using the same techniques that were used to create the famous daggers.

Spears and javelins are practically unknown through most of the stone age, but they were appearantly used in the parts of the mesolithic period and late in the neolithic period. The late spearheads are also exquisitely carved.

Axes are also very widespread throughout the entire stoneage period. They were used as tools and weapons, as well as for religious purposes. There exist several axeheads that were clearly designed to be sacrificed, as they are too impractical for ordinary use. They were the main status symbol, until the late dagger were introduced.

Atlatls are not known directly in Scandinavia, through archaological finds, but their use is presume at least in the mesolithic period. I have no knowledge of their use in later periods, but it cannot be dismissed.

In the late neolithic, the stone mace were beginning to get quite common. There are large amounts of heads found in Scandinavia and some show battle damage.

There are some finds of bone axes, that can be dated to the neolithic, but they are most known in the mesolithic and even the bronze age.

Slings are unknown in the archaological evidence in Scandinavia, though there are some indirect evidence of their use. The primary of these, date to the pre-roman iron age, but I do not doubt that they were used previously.

As for rocks? They should be common in all periods. There are reports of the celts using them, along with slings, as siegeweapons, both for defence and for attack. They are also very cheap and quite efficient...

If you are interested, I could mail you a few drawings of some of these weapons. I will scan them from our flint "bible," if you so desire. They are copywrited to the author of the book, but you can make some new and approximated versions of them, without problems.

 

[sword-dancer]

Well, now is your chance! (What is TDE?)

DB

The dark Eye.

That`s what i asked for, Non Hype and btw I read John Clemens Article.

An arming sword with a large shield can face a pole-axe or any other pole arm easily. I've done it myself many times sparring....

Against a full Harness ?

There were Plate "massproduced" in Germany, even knightly armor AFAIK, so the cost wouldnt be to extreme.

Yes I know what the swiss and the hussites did, but these was also part of their battle field Tactics against their enemies, getting ambushed or attacked from behind, has it effects.

 

[Drifter Bob]

Against a full Harness ?

Lacking the funds currently to afford full harness (by which he means plate armor) I have not yet had the experience. However, while an arming sword is unlikely to pierce plate armor, you can adequately defend yourself with a sword and shield against a polearm, that is my point. Also, the armor does not make you utterly inulnerable to the impact.

The armor is somewhat of a seperate issue, but against full harness I'd leave my arming sword sheathed and either use a war hammer if I had one, or close to grapple and fight with my dagger if I didn't. The shield will help you do just that without being struck by the polearm first.

There were Plate "massproduced" in Germany, even knightly armor AFAIK, so the cost wouldnt be to extreme.

We were discussing Maximillian gothic harness I believe, which was certainly never mass produced. The 'munitions' armor that was mass produced often did not cover the entiree body, it was usually so-called three quarters plate (or sometimes less) which usually left at least the lower legs, backs of thighs, and often faces uprotected. It was also usually thinner and poorer metal and not as effective against penetration by high energy missiles such as heavy crossbows (armbrust(?) in Germany)

Munition armor is also said to be much clumsier and heavier than the custom made Milanese or German harness.

So the mass produced armor isn't quite as good, it's certainly not as good as Maximillian plate!.

That said, there isn't perfect balance obviously. If you can afford it, on the open battlefield, a pole arm or two handed sword are excellent weapons and full harness is ideal protection. On the other hand, an 8 foot Bill is pretty useless inside a confined space in a building, and plate armor, while not anywhere near as clumsy as often portrayed in the media, is hardly ideal kit for exploring underground caverns.

These issues are reflected in our rules.

Yes I know what the swiss and the hussites did, but these was also part of their battle field Tactics against their enemies, getting ambushed or attacked from behind, has it effects.

It's true that military tactics are often different from individual fighting tactics, but it can't be denied that relativley poorly equipped Swiss and Bohemian peasants, (and others from Flanders to Scotland) did routinely make short work of the best armed knights both in very small and very large scale engagements, and it cannot fairly be said that they always relied on ambush or attack from behind.

The later success of the German Landsknecht speaks volumes of the effectiveness of well trained infantry into the late Renaissance...

DB

 

[Drifter Bob]

The boomerangs found in Scandinavia are not boomerangs at all. It has been proven, both through archaological finds and through ethnological studies, that they are a part of a thrusting harpoon. Just like the harpoons that eskimoes use (at least in Greenland, but I think that their use is widespread).

Interesting! Do you think that is the case for all of the purported European boomerangs? Have you heard of the cateia and the teutona mentoined in the Roman texts? I'm sure you are familiar with these finds

http://www.rediboom.com/englisch/geschich/magdebg.html
http://www.rediboom.com/englisch/geschich/polen.html

The most famous of the several Roman texts includes these lines of Virgils from the aenead

“Et quos maliferae despectant moenia Abellae
Teutonico ritu soliti torquere cateias.”

Certainly the egyptian Lisan and various African and Indian weapons qualify.

What, if anything do you think of the chakrum?

Bows in Scandinavia goes far back into the mesolithicum, with a wide variety in arrowheads. They range from very heavy, to the exquisite neolithic arrowheads. Some of these are just as impressive as our flint daggers. They appear to have been mainly a hunting weapon, but knowledge of warfare in neolithicum is very weak and very discussed.

Yes it is interesting that these very powerful longbows seem to go quite far back, and most finds seem to be in scandinavia. It's interesting that such formidable weapons existed side by side with very inferior and much weaker bows, which if anything seemed to have a wider use on the battlefield until the Welsh longbow rose to importance in the late medieval period. I've even heard it suggested that the Welsh longbow came with Vikings or earlier germanic invasions, but don't mention that around English historians, they go apoplectic!

The flint dagger (and to a certain extend, the copper/bronze dagger) were probably the main weapon in neolithic combat. They were at the same time regarded as a status symbol and were often buried with their (presumed) owners and were often sacrificed.

I've seen so many images of those skeletons with their small dagger in one hand and huge booze jug in the other. The old gangster "gin and juice" mentality goes a long way back.

The early sword have also been used in combat, but only after the first copper/bronze swords and daggers have made their appearance.

Interesting. This doesn't always seem to be the case in other parts of the world, the Aztecs for example had their sword like war clubs of the flint edged type but did not have bronze per se, though they did have copper. Also the north american indians and pacific islanders seemed to have those hardwood warclubs, some of which were quite swordlike.

The flint carved swords are extremely rare and is carved using the same techniques that were used to create the famous daggers.

Wow! I never heard of such a thing! Are any preserved intact?

Spears and javelins are practically unknown through most of the stone age, but they were appearantly used in the parts of the mesolithic period and late in the neolithic period. The late spearheads are also exquisitely carved.

that is a surprise to me, I wasn't aware of that. Do you mean in Scandinavia only or everywhere?

Atlatls are not known directly in Scandinavia, through archaological finds, but their use is presume at least in the mesolithic period. I have no knowledge of their use in later periods, but it cannot be dismissed.

Interesting. I have often wondered why the atlatl dissapeared as a weapon, from what the modern enthusiasts say it has a lot of advantages over most self bows you see around the world, not to mention javelins.

As for rocks? They should be common in all periods. There are reports of the celts using them, along with slings, as siegeweapons, both for defence and for attack. They are also very cheap and quite efficient...

Yep, rock throwers were part of armies not only in neolithic times, but in Greece and Rome, and all the way into the late Renaissance. The Swiss and the Hussites both had corps of rock throwers, deployed side by side with guns and cannon!

It amazes me that wihle people realise a baseball can be thrown 90+ miles per hour, they don't realise how much damage a hard rock can cause. We introduce a thrown rock as a fairly formidable weapon in the D&D pantheon...

If you are interested, I could mail you a few drawings of some of these weapons. I will scan them from our flint "bible," if you so desire. They are copywrited to the author of the book, but you can make some new and approximated versions of them, without problems.

I would be extremely interested in this. I would also like you to participate in our beta program if you are interested. If you would like act as a consultant for our neolithic arms PDF I would be honored. We can discuss details by email.

I will contact you by private message.

DB

 

[Terraism]

The weapon and equipment rules are set up in a modular fashion so that you can use them either with or without the combat rules.

The rules themselves are set up so that some parts of them can be used without using all of them.

DB

PDF or print, I'd buy this in a heartbeat. I'm constantly tweaking the D&D rules, especially combat, to get closer to realism (and I'm not too terribly worried about things slowing down combat, because we get into - big - fights rarely enough that it's actually a benefit.) Especially with that great art you mentioned. It must be mine!

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I'm interested to hear the delayed answers.

Um, er... right on...

(I'll answer this in more detail when I get some time to go through it point by point...)

DB

 

[TheLostSoul]

Interesting! Do you think that is the case for all of the purported European boomerangs? Have you heard of the cateia and the teutona mentoined in the Roman texts? I'm sure you are familiar with these finds

http://www.rediboom.com/englisch/geschich/magdebg.html
http://www.rediboom.com/englisch/geschich/polen.html

The most famous of the several Roman texts includes these lines of Virgils from the aenead

“Et quos maliferae despectant moenia Abellae
Teutonico ritu soliti torquere cateias.”

Certainly the egyptian Lisan and various African and Indian weapons qualify.

What, if anything do you think of the chakrum?

The boomerang can easily have been used throughout Europe, but the finds that I am familiar with, are all Danish and are not boomerangs. The Magdeburg artefact does bear resemblance to the danish finds, but if it is a harpoon, I would think that it has been wrongly dated (14C dating can be very unreliable, as their are many factors that can produce a wrong result).

I do not know much about the chakrum, besides that it was used in India.

Yes it is interesting that these very powerful longbows seem to go quite far back, and most finds seem to be in scandinavia. It's interesting that such formidable weapons existed side by side with very inferior and much weaker bows, which if anything seemed to have a wider use on the battlefield until the Welsh longbow rose to importance in the late medieval period. I've even heard it suggested that the Welsh longbow came with Vikings or earlier germanic invasions, but don't mention that around English historians, they go apoplectic!

It might very well be, but the bow went more or less out of use in most of Europe during the bronzeage and until the migration era. There are cultures that used them during this time, the Scythians for example. Most of these cultures are from the Russian steppes and the near east.

The classical archaologist also keep claiming that the Greeks invented the breastplate, despite the fact that the Celts it had been using them for several hundreds years before the greeks. In archaeology, these issues often come op and are almost always tainted by peoples ideas of "civilised" cultures and politics.

Interesting. This doesn't always seem to be the case in other parts of the world, the Aztecs for example had their sword like war clubs of the flint edged type but did not have bronze per se, though they did have copper. Also the north american indians and pacific islanders seemed to have those hardwood warclubs, some of which were quite swordlike.

It was the case in Scandinavia and most parts of Europe, as far as I know, but I know that their were African, Meso-American and Pacific cultures that already had swordlike weapons before the introduction of bronze weaponry. Some of might have been influenced by outside cultures though.

Wow! I never heard of such a thing! Are any preserved intact?

Yep! There are some beautiful, intact examples at the National Museum in Copenhagen. They are said to be copies of a pair of bronzeage swords (the Rørby swords), that might be the first ones in Denmark. My father-in-law wishes to find one, one day. He is not an archaologist, but he likes walking in fields and on beaches looking for stoneage artifacts.

that is a surprise to me, I wasn't aware of that. Do you mean in Scandinavia only or everywhere?

This is in Scandinavia. There are other places where the spear is older. As far as I can remember, some of the Native American cultures used spears and several pacific cultures did as well.

Interesting. I have often wondered why the atlatl dissapeared as a weapon, from what the modern enthusiasts say it has a lot of advantages over most self bows you see around the world, not to mention javelins.

It does have alot of advantages, but I think the bow is more efficient. The arrows are smaller than your typical throwing spear, so you can carry more. I cannot be certain, but I think the bow has an advantage in both speed and power.

It amazes me that wihle people realise a baseball can be thrown 90+ miles per hour, they don't realise how much damage a hard rock can cause. We introduce a thrown rock as a fairly formidable weapon in the D&D pantheon...

Okay.

I would be extremely interested in this. I would also like you to participate in our beta program if you are interested. If you would like act as a consultant for our neolithic arms PDF I would be honored. We can discuss details by email.

I will contact you by private message.

DB

I would be honered to aid you in this project. You can use this address: leiffie@get2net.dk

 

[Arrgh! Mark!]

Misreply

Being a fencer, I must say that I would be beyond happy to see such a system come into use.

But. And here's the big but. I don't think it's possible with d20; simply the way the class system works and the regular fighting system works is too abstracted for a realistic fighting sequence. The base attack system? One simply knows where his weapon is when you train with it and what it can do.

When I began training, my first weapon was a Rapier; fair enough. I was clumsy and couldn't hit a thing. Now I'm accurate (to a degree, at any rate), and fairly good - good example of +1 going to +3 and maybe Weapon Focus. Then I learned your typical arming sword; the footwork being the same but the arm movements being different, I was again not exactly a rank beginner but certainly not worthy of a +3. Thats just a poor example.

Whats my Armor Class? What the hell is that? It's all an abstraction. You would need to rework the basic class-system and combat system completely. Fighter class knowing how to use every weapon? But at level 1 you'd miss a small barrel 1/2 the time? right.


But less on the rule side, I must ask: How would you resolve such issues (as previously mentioned) between cultures that never met? George Silver, or Marozzo against Musashi?

In the end you must say the winner would be the most skilled, of course - but how would the relative effectiveness of the equipment be tested? We know a katana is a nice little weapon for cleaving through flesh - but when it's main techniques revolved around first-strikes and so on, how do you deal with your advanced half-sword technique? against a whompin 16th century greatsword? There's no real-life examples to draw from. Western against Western, sure - Eastern against Eastern. But how to mix them?

Just a few questions.