D&D 5E Poll: What is a Level 1 PC?

What is a Level 1 PC?

  • Average Joe

    Votes: 21 6.1%
  • Average Joe... with potential

    Votes: 120 34.7%
  • Special but not quite a Hero

    Votes: 175 50.6%
  • Already a Hero and extraordinary

    Votes: 30 8.7%

I'm curious, just how much brainspace exactly does it take to write down "blacksmith level 3, 14 hp, craft farm implements 6 ranks, craft weapons 3 ranks. " ???

I dont feel like I've lost any capacity in my memory banks for having gone through that incredibly laborious task, but perhaps it simply took so much that I've lost some of the ability to realize just how damaged and overfull my brain is now?

So for curiosity, how much of your brainspace would writing down that sentence actually take? Inquiring minds want to know why this task is so incredibly challenging.

Please don't put words in my mouth (er, on my fingers?). I never said it was "incredibly" anything, nevermind laborious or challenging, simply that it was (and here I quote myself), "more... than I'm willing to devote to it".

Also, as [MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION] noted, the fact that you're able to rattle off those stats at all indicates that you've devoted the time, effort, and brainspace to internalizing the appropriate system to generate the stats (unless you went and looked it up, or just made it up on the spot).

However much space that system takes up (or the time and effort it took to go check a book) is surely more than the not-even-thought-of-until-the-players-ask yes/no binary response to "Hey, can this village's blacksmith do the work?".
 

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Verisimilitude.

That's not really true though. One of the things about 3.x that always really bugged me was how it coupled combat ability (which is represented by level) with someone's skill at a non-combat task.

Or instance, say you had the greatest blacksmith in the world or the greatest starship designer in the galaxy (as I first realized this in Star Wars d20 when I tried converting an old WEG Star Wars module where newbie PCs helped rescue the designer of the original Star Destroyer). By definition, he'd have like 23 skill ranks, and thus need to be 20th level.

Which would make him a better fighter than the vast majority of people in the world, which just doesn't make sense. (Especially in the module, since it was meant to beginners)

So if you want verisimilitude, then levels and classes should only represent combat ability, thus most NPCs should be 0th level and have no class.
 

Verisimilitude.

What does it take away from your game that makes you strongly opposed to it?

Verisimilitude.

Let's use your example of a blacksmith who can forge mithril, who you insist is made using the expert NPC class and with several levels in it. Compare that character to a 1st level Warrior, who is a professional at fighting. The expert, if they've got four or five levels, is harder to kill and more likely to hit a target, and given they've presumably got wealth appropriate to their level is able to equip themselves adequately. The blacksmith is better at fighting than the person who has that as their profession, not because they're supposed to be good at fighting but because they have to be to have the skill levels they require to be able to work mithril.

And apparently you consider that adds to verisimilitude. I don't.
 

In a way, the problem of combat-capable high-level peasants and blacksmiths is not a problem with the class/level system - it's a problem with the 3e commoner and expert classes that bundled BAB and hit point progression with increasing skill ranks.

That said, if you do happen to define "non-combat" classes that gain skill ranks or skill bonuses but no increases in hit points or BAB, level stops being a (semi-)reliable gauge of CR, and a level 20 blacksmith with just one level of expert and 19 non-combat levels would only be CR 1/2 or so.

At that point, you might as well ignore level and give the NPC blacksmith whatever skill rank you want.
 

That's not really true though. One of the things about 3.x that always really bugged me was how it coupled combat ability (which is represented by level) with someone's skill at a non-combat task.

It was indeed a mistake to tie those together in every case. If, however, the Expert class had opened a "Master Craftsman" prestige class that removed the ranks/level tie but not had any BAB increase (or something like that), then that problem would have gone away.

Ultimately, though, I agree with you - while the NPC classes were extremely useful in some instances, trying to model the entire world with them was rather problematic, to say the least!

(as I first realized this in Star Wars d20 when I tried converting an old WEG Star Wars module where newbie PCs helped rescue the designer of the original Star Destroyer).

Ah, now this is a bad example, because even having a single "designer of the original Star Destroyer" is sheerest madness. Something like that would have been put together by a massive team of architects and designers, using the best possible software tools (and building on prior art). With all the sub-designers applying +2 bonuses from Aid Another, that project lead might well have been only 5th level (albeit with maxed ranks, the appropriate skill focus, and a high attribute bonus).

But more than that, crafting a Star Destroyer, although a task of massive size and scope, probably isn't inherently all that difficult (in the context of SW-galaxy technology). It would be comparable to designing a new class of naval vessel in our own world - sure, the skills involved are pretty impressive, and it's a lot of work, but none of the million-and-one substeps are inherently superhuman in difficulty.

Let's use your example of a blacksmith who can forge mithril, who you insist is made using the expert NPC class and with several levels in it. Compare that character to a 1st level Warrior, who is a professional at fighting. The expert, if they've got four or five levels, is harder to kill and more likely to hit a target,

Yep, I agree with this. You can build the Expert so as to negate this oddity (by assigning minimum hit points, or whatever), but that's certainly a dodge around a mistake in the system. As you note, tying BAB and max ranks to level in this way (and then trying to model the whole world like that) was a mistake.

and given they've presumably got wealth appropriate to their level is able to equip themselves adequately.

I do, however, have to take issue with this. Yes, the smith will have greater wealth, but if he's actually built as a smith then that would take the form of his home and his forge, masterwork tools, and the like. Equipping the Expert for war and then claiming that as an inherent weakness in the system is a bit of a stretch, IMO. (Well, in the general case. Of course, since we're talking about a blacksmith, it would be entirely reasonable for him to have a masterwork morningstar and masterwork chain shirt lying around. He shouldn't be using anything better than that, though - he's not proficient with martial weapons or medium armour.)

The blacksmith is better at fighting than the person who has that as their profession, not because they're supposed to be good at fighting but because they have to be to have the skill levels they require to be able to work mithril.

Yep. The Expert class is of some use for those occasional NPCs who spend significant time travelling with PCs, or who are themselves somehow epic (it's not unreasonable that a legendary dwarven blacksmith would have some significant combat abilities, for example), but it's not really a good idea to try to use them as the basis for modelling an entire world.
 

(2) Illogical NPC classes in the game-world which lead inevitably to butt-kicking turnip farmers because of the idiosyncracies of levels. I can't see how this isn't a versimilitude problem while an absence of NPC classes is.

-O

TURNIPS AND DRAGONS

Turnip Patch
Level 3 Huge Elite Swarm - 600 XP

Aura 2: 5 Psychic damage and why are you farming turnips anyway? Turnips? Disgusting.

Standard Actions:

Why didn't I pick potatoes instead? MMMM...mashed potatoes.
All enemies in swarm: + 7 vs Will; 1d8 + 3 damage and annoyed with your stupid choice at being a turnip farmer instead of a mashed potato farmer until the end of your next turn. I mean. Come on. Turnips? Yeah, take an extra - 2 to something. Well...at least its not beets. Ok, no - 2.

Non-Combat Challenge: Turn your stupid turnip field over after harvest - 600 XP

Major Quest: Actually convince your village to buy your stupid turnips - 1000 XP

I don't know. If you're actually a living, thriving turnip farmer, then you must have accrued an enormous amount of XP, wealth and treasure. The implied setting is wrong. Adventurers should be raiding Turnip Plantations instead of Acerak's Lairs, Laboratories, etc.
 

Verisimilitude.

Let's use your example of a blacksmith who can forge mithril, who you insist is made using the expert NPC class and with several levels in it. Compare that character to a 1st level Warrior, who is a professional at fighting. The expert, if they've got four or five levels, is harder to kill and more likely to hit a target, and given they've presumably got wealth appropriate to their level is able to equip themselves adequately. The blacksmith is better at fighting than the person who has that as their profession, not because they're supposed to be good at fighting but because they have to be to have the skill levels they require to be able to work mithril.

And apparently you consider that adds to verisimilitude. I don't.
Your point has some validity to it. However, practically speaking, the expert is only proficient in simple weapons and may not even carry any weapons, while the warrior is proficient in martial weapons and shields and likely spends whatever money he has on armor and weapons. The warrior also likely has a higher strength score and combat relevant feats, while most experts will focus on mental ability scores and skill focus feats. So actually building a reasonable character, that expert would have to be much higher in level than the warrior to actually have the superior fighting prowess you describe. Even four or five levels might not make up that difference (and if you believe the DMG's conservative NPC generation guidelines, 5th level experts are a rare breed).

Frankly there are scenarios in which well-versed amateurs should be able to beat a a wet-behind-the-ears city guard. But yes, there does get to be a point where the base save/attack bonuses, hit points, and excess skills aren't really appropriate. This is really more a function of class systems in general than of the way NPCs are treated. The same problem arises with PC classes. Shouldn't a 1st level fighter be able to beat up a 10th level diviner in melee (assuming the latter for some reason did not use any spells)? But doesn't that diviner have a huge BAB/hit point/equipment advantage? That's just as problematic.

***

The verisimilitude issue being discussed is an entirely separate one, in my mind. Given the conceit of a class system, when players learn how to generate characters, they assume that the rules they are using are the rules of the D&D world. They expect those rules to apply equally to everyone in that world. The issue at hand is not whether a DM must actually generate stats for every character that ever comes into the PCs line of sight, or even whether or not those stats reasonably describe the character's expertise. The issue is simply whether or not they theoretically exist.

Verisimilitude is achieved through consistency.
 

(1) Time sinks and unnecessary tasks spent making NPCs more detailed than they need to be.
(3) It throws class/level into every discussion of beings in the gameworld when it's a very clumsy attempt at obsessively categorizing the universe. Square pegs, round holes.
(4) Extraneous math which uses a process as a screen. It's fake versimilitude - you're following a process, so it feels like you're doing something, when in fact the math just obscures the final intent.

Yep, yep, and yep.

And yet...

(2) Illogical NPC classes in the game-world which lead inevitably to butt-kicking turnip farmers because of the idiosyncracies of levels. I can't see how this isn't a versimilitude problem while an absence of NPC classes is.

Maybe it's just me, but I have no difficulty seeing the standard farmer in a points-of-light world being able to take care of himself. I mean, what happens if a band of kobolds attacks the farm and there isn't a group of 1st level PCs waiting around to start their new campaign? :)

Besides, the highest-level turnip farmer, veteran of a million unstarted campaigns, probably reaches the heady heights of 5th level:

Joe the Turnip Farmer
5th level Commoner
Str 12, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: Craft (farmer) +11, Handle Animal +7, Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: Weapon Proficiency (club), Skill Focus (craft-farmer), Alertness, Iron Will
Hit Points: 14
AC: 10 (touch 10, flat-footed 10)
Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +3
Attack: Club +3 (+2 thrown), 1d6+1 damage

I'll agree that that's way more detail than really should be necessary. But I think "butt-kicking" is rather stretching things a bit, isn't it?
 

Your point has some validity to it. However, practically speaking, the expert is only proficient in simple weapons and may not even carry any weapons, while the warrior is proficient in martial weapons and shields and likely spends whatever money he has on armor and weapons.
So one is doing on average d8 damage and the other is doing d6 damage. If they have their favorite weapons with them. And absent actually wearing armor - which would indeed help, as equipment often does! - we end up with good turnip farmers trouncing trained mercenaries and guards in bar brawls.

Let's bring in Experts, though, instead, who get better proficiencies and attack skills. Capable architects, musicians, and silversmiths can now trounce equally-experienced physical laborers and farmers in a brawl.

Ability scores can let you kludge an already nonsensical system, true. But at that point, why not just rely on ability scores as would be sensible rather than trying to cram the world into a class/level system?

What is gained through a full 20-level class progression that isn't gained through (1) just using something akin to 0-level rules, and (2) assigning them whatever skill bonus makes sense given their profession?

Verisimilitude is achieved through consistency.
Consistency is achieved through consistency. You can mistake it for versimilitude if you squint.

-O
 


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