D&D 5E Poll: What is a Level 1 PC?

[N'raac]

The NPCs spend years practicing their Glass-Blowing skills. The PC overtakes them because they kill lots of goblins. Right, that's not at all unreasonable, but having people excel at their profession without also being high level is.

The solution, to me, is an NPC class specifically designed for gaining skill in very focused areas. Perhaps this NPC class gains no BAB, no save bonuses and no hit points from levelling up. Maybe all he gets is an enhancement to that one professional skill, or maybe he gets another skill point or two every now and then. Or maybe levelling up gives him higher income potential in his chosen profession. It's an NPC class. It doesn't have to be as good, or nearly as good, as a PC class.

Which means that PC's are special, to some extent, from the outset.

 

[Obryn]

The solution, to me, is an NPC class specifically designed for gaining skill in very focused areas. Perhaps this NPC class gains no BAB, no save bonuses and no hit points from levelling up. Maybe all he gets is an enhancement to that one professional skill, or maybe he gets another skill point or two every now and then. Or maybe levelling up gives him higher income potential in his chosen profession. It's an NPC class. It doesn't have to be as good, or nearly as good, as a PC class.

Which means that PC's are special, to some extent, from the outset.

That seems like altogether unnecessary work, when the sensible option is just that the NPC does what they are needed to do as well as they need to do it. We don't waste time wondering what level a tech entrepreneur is.

-O

 

[Mallus]

The solution, to me, is an NPC class specifically designed for gaining skill in very focused areas. Perhaps this NPC class gains no BAB, no save bonuses and no hit points from levelling up. Maybe all he gets is an enhancement to that one professional skill, or maybe he gets another skill point or two every now and then. Or maybe levelling up gives him higher income potential in his chosen profession. It's an NPC class. It doesn't have to be as good, or nearly as good, as a PC class.

Which means that PC's are special, to some extent, from the outset.

Why do non-adventuring NPCs need an advancement system at all? What purpose would it serve?

The game is about the PCs progression. NPCs are created by fiat by the DM as needed, possessing whatever abilities and resources the DM deems necessary and/or plausible.

The only exception to this are the NPCs that accompany the PCs on their adventures --henchmen, followers, classed allies-- and simplest thing to do is just give them PC class levels (and a portion of the XP).

 

[Imaro]

That seems like altogether unnecessary work, when the sensible option is just that the NPC does what they are needed to do as well as they need to do it. We don't waste time wondering what level a tech entrepreneur is.

-O

Why do non-adventuring NPCs need an advancement system at all? What purpose would it serve?

The game is about the PCs progression. NPCs are created by fiat by the DM as needed, possessing whatever abilities and resources the DM deems necessary and/or plausible.

The only exception to this are the NPCs that accompany the PCs on their adventures --henchmen, followers, classed allies-- and simplest thing to do is just give them PC class levels (and a portion of the XP).

I'm curious... given that a PC can (theoretically) attempt anything an NPC could... in the case where a PC wants to challenge an NPC in a non-combat competition (poetry/singing/dancing/crafting something/etc).... how do you create a "fair" competition if you're just using fiat?

 

[Obryn]

I'm curious... given that a PC can (theoretically) attempt anything an NPC could... in the case where a PC wants to challenge an NPC in a non-combat competition (poetry/singing/dancing/crafting something/etc).... how do you create a "fair" competition if you're just using fiat?

If these skills exist, the NPC has whatever skill bonus is appropriate for their expertise. If you are facing a random innkeep in a cook-off it's probably low. If you are facing the greatest chef in the kingdom, it's probably really high.

It's no more unfair or arbitrary than assigning a level to the NPC - it may just feel like it because the result is gained through a process.

I also disagree that a PC can do anything an NPC can do, or vice-versa. NPCs probably don't get better at cooking through a few weeks of severing goblin heads. Instead, they'd do the more logical thing and practice cooking.

(Also, since when did paying close attention to metagame concerns like reverse-engineering skill points improve immersion or versimilitude?)

-O

 

[Bluenose]

I'm curious... given that a PC can (theoretically) attempt anything an NPC could... in the case where a PC wants to challenge an NPC in a non-combat competition (poetry/singing/dancing/crafting something/etc).... how do you create a "fair" competition if you're just using fiat?

Is there any less arbitrary when you're deciding what level the NPC is and therefore what skill they can have? It's not as if reality prevents teenage boys being regarded as the best pianists in Europe and composing music that's still performed 200-years later. I'd actually be fine with the idea that an adventurer, who spends most of their life not performing and practicising on the piano, wouldn't have a chance in that competition despite being high-level.

 

[Imaro]

If these skills exist, the NPC has whatever skill bonus is appropriate for their expertise. If you are facing a random innkeep in a cook-off it's probably low. If you are facing the greatest chef in the kingdom, it's probably really high.

It's no more unfair or arbitrary than assigning a level to the NPC - it may just feel like it because the result is gained through a process.

But doesn't assigning a level to the PC allow me to ball park or not ballpark him relative to the level of the PC's, or the campaign world (depending on my preference)... and thus have a better feel for what type of challenge he will present as opposed to slapping a random number in his skill?

I also disagree that a PC can do anything an NPC can do, or vice-versa. NPCs probably don't get better at cooking through a few weeks of severing goblin heads. Instead, they'd do the more logical thing and practice cooking.

I did say theoretically, and I think all the things I listed, as well as quite a few I didn't would be things a PC could theoretically do.

As to your second point I wasn't asking about how the classes in and of themselves advance. Since by RAW, a DM can award XP as he sees fit in every edition since at least 3.0... there's no need to assume here that cooks had to advance through killing goblins just because they have a certain amount of experience points. The example given by N'racc specifically divorced comabt ability from the leveling up of these classes so I'm not sure why this was even mentioned.

(Also, since when did paying close attention to metagame concerns like reverse-engineering skill points improve immersion or versimilitude?)

-O

I'm not sure who this is directed at since I never stated it did. I do think that arbitrarily assigning skill values (especially being a new DM and without guidance or some kind of measurement scale) certainly has the potential to destroy the versimilitude and immersion of players if a DM isn't careful and doesn't keep track of the scores he's choosing.

 

[Imaro]

Is there any less arbitrary when you're deciding what level the NPC is and therefore what skill they can have? It's not as if reality prevents teenage boys being regarded as the best pianists in Europe and composing music that's still performed 200-years later. I'd actually be fine with the idea that an adventurer, who spends most of their life not performing and practicising on the piano, wouldn't have a chance in that competition despite being high-level.

I answered in my previous post why I think level is less arbitrary but I'll further expound on that and ask you a question. Let's say I am creating a sand box and have assigned different general levels to different areas of the sand box. How, in thiws situation, does assigning a level to an NPC as opposed to slapping a random number in all of his numerical values not serve my goals better?

EDIT: Note I'm not necessarily arguing that a system is a better choice, especially since my game of choice now is DCC rpg... but if I'm an experienced enough DM to know that I don't need such system and still run my game smoothly... why can't I just ignore it if it is there and we're all happy?

 

[Obryn]

But doesn't assigning a level to the PC allow me to ball park or not ballpark him relative to the level of the PC's, or the campaign world (depending on my preference)... and thus have a better feel for what type of challenge he will present as opposed to slapping a random number in his skill?

This is why I argued for a simple table, if such a thing is necessary. It's really a simple way to handle it. "Average Village Professional: +5; Legendary Expert: +20" and so on.

As to your second point I wasn't asking about how the classes in and of themselves advance. Since by RAW, a DM can award XP as he sees fit in every edition since at least 3.0... there's no need to assume here that cooks had to advance through killing goblins just because they have a certain amount of experience points. The example given by N'racc specifically divorced comabt ability from the leveling up of these classes so I'm not sure why this was even mentioned.

The real meat of it was that an adventurer, through killing goblins for a few weeks, gets better at cooking much faster than a guy practicing cooking does.

I'm not sure who this is directed at since I never stated it did. I do think that arbitrarily assigning skill values (especially being a new DM and without guidance or some kind of measurement scale) certainly has the potential to destroy the versimilitude and immersion of players if a DM isn't careful and doesn't keep track of the scores he's choosing.

More directed towards others, hence the parentheses

-O

 

[Imaro]

This is why I argued for a simple table, if such a thing is necessary. It's really a simple way to handle it. "Average Village Professional: +5; Legendary Expert: +20" and so on.

Ok, given this chart how would I decide on the skill values for an area of my sandbox campaign that I want to design as a 5th level challenge? You see creating a 5th level NPC allows me to do this... arbitrarily assigning a number really doesn't.