D&D 5E Poll: What is a Level 1 PC?

[Ryujin]

Ok, given this chart how would I decide on the skill values for an area of my sandbox campaign that I want to design as a 5th level challenge? You see creating a 5th level NPC allows me to do this... arbitrarily assigning a number really doesn't.

By giving them no skill, maximum skill that would be possible for a given level, something in between, or something off the charts. Whatever actually worked in the given situation. It doesn't require knowing stats, hits, attack values...... Just skills.

 

[Imaro]

By giving them no skill, maximum skill that would be possible for a given level, something in between, or something off the charts. Whatever actually worked in the given situation. It doesn't require knowing stats, hits, attack values...... Just skills.

Huh? This doesn't exactly accomplish the goal I set forth... How do I know what "works", especially as a new DM?

 

[Ryujin]

Huh? This doesn't exactly accomplish the goal I set forth... How do I know what "works", especially as a new DM?

Well for one thing, you can take a cue or two from your players' characters.

 

[Obryn]

Huh? This doesn't exactly accomplish the goal I set forth... How do I know what "works", especially as a new DM?

I want to be sure I understand your argument re: new DMs, so let me follow along.

You're saying that the following is easier for a new DM than looking up numbers on a table and applying judgment.

(1) Assigning ability scores
(2) Figuring out stat modifiers (remember - new DM)
(3) Figuring out a level for the NPC
(4) Assigning the proper class
(5) Assigning skill points, keeping in mind x4 at 1st level and max ranks
(6) Assigning necessary feats to improve skills
(7) Figuring out saving throws and hit points in case the PCs want to mess with them

...Am I getting it right?

-O

 

[pemerton]

But what other game is well-known enough to recruit new players and well-developed enough to satisfy experienced rpg-ers? I don't know of any.

With all due respect, then, you might want to look around a bit.

Here are the ones I know of that seem to be a much better fit for your expressed play preferences than D&D:

* Runequest

* Rolemaster

* HARP

* Burning Wheel (it has strong narrativist elements, but you could ignore them and still have a pretty robust simulationist resolution system)

* GURPS

* HERO.

All of these systems are more than adequately developed to satisfy "advance players". Runequest and HERO would be the two most influential RPGs of all time after D&D.

If you're interested in looking at Rolemaster, there is currently an open playtest of a revised version taking place at the Iron Crown Enterprises website.

 

[pemerton]

But doesn't assigning a level to the PC allow me to ball park or not ballpark him relative to the level of the PC's, or the campaign world (depending on my preference)... and thus have a better feel for what type of challenge he will present as opposed to slapping a random number in his skill?

Let's say I am creating a sand box and have assigned different general levels to different areas of the sand box. How, in thiws situation, does assigning a level to an NPC as opposed to slapping a random number in all of his numerical values not serve my goals better?

Ok, given this chart how would I decide on the skill values for an area of my sandbox campaign that I want to design as a 5th level challenge? You see creating a 5th level NPC allows me to do this... arbitrarily assigning a number really doesn't.

Why would I assign the skill bonus to the NPC randomly or arbitrarily. I would assign it to reflect their skill, based either on (i) a sense of what sort of bonus corresponds to what level of expertise (+1 novie, +5 basic training, +10 expert, +20 world famous), or (ii) a sense of what will be a good challenge for my PCs (if the best PC chef is +5, +7 sounds like a challenging bonus for an NPC, given the likely hijinks PCs can get up to to boost their bonuses).

Like [MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION], [MENTION=3887]Mallus[/MENTION], [MENTION=49017]Bluenose[/MENTION] and others upthread, I don't see the point of mediating this via rules for levelling, stats, skill point allocation, feat acquision etc.

 

[Hussar]

Ok, given this chart how would I decide on the skill values for an area of my sandbox campaign that I want to design as a 5th level challenge? You see creating a 5th level NPC allows me to do this... arbitrarily assigning a number really doesn't.

Sure it does. Why did you put that NPC at 5th level? You did so to ensure that the NPC had a skill score of X. That is the sole reason that that NPC is 5th level. He has a skill score of X because the NPC is a (insert adjective here - good, not bad, great, fantastic) skill person who would be a challenge vs a given level of PC.

Given a transparent system with fairly flat math, you simply assign the number based on the results you want. This cook is a very good cook and the scenario is a cook off. He'd be a strong challenge to anyone with a +X skill. He'd be unbeatable by anyone with significantly less than X and a speed bump to anyone with Y.

The system should be able to tell you what a fairly average skill level and a high end skill level for a given PC is at a given level. Granted it took them a few tries, but 4e managed to do this. There's no reason you cannot sandbox this. You set up your cook as a hard challenge for level X. If the PC's are level X, then fine, if they are higher or lower, they have more or less difficulty.

Now, how is that more difficult than going through the entire process of leveling an NPC to gain that target number. The whole point of the exercise is that target number, who cares what the level of the NPC is? It's irrelavent.

 

[Ahnehnois]

With all due respect, then, you might want to look around a bit.

Here are the ones I know of that seem to be a much better fit for your expressed play preferences than D&D:

* Runequest

* Rolemaster

* HARP

* Burning Wheel (it has strong narrativist elements, but you could ignore them and still have a pretty robust simulationist resolution system)

* GURPS

* HERO.

All of these systems are more than adequately developed to satisfy "advance players". Runequest and HERO would be the two most influential RPGs of all time after D&D.

If you're interested in looking at Rolemaster, there is currently an open playtest of a revised version taking place at the Iron Crown Enterprises website.

On some level, the suggestion is appreciated. If I were starting out, I might be well-advised to look at some of these.

Realistically, my level of investment into 3e D&D, both in money, but more importantly in time over ten years of play experience, makes it unlikely that I would consider changing rpgs. My current 3e games are sufficiently houseruled that my players consider them to be an edition of D&D unto themselves. The question, for me, is how to take 3e D&D and better make it serve what I envisioned when I originally read it. Those other games (none of which I have ever seen played) probably do have interesting elements that would push things towards that goal, but my current game is working pretty well for me. The only thing I would likely switch to is something that allowed me to run exactly the game I do right now, but more easily.

I'm just a little baffled that no big rpg company is doing the same thing that I (or others like me are doing); trying to substantially revise the OGL version of the game and make it better.

 

[pemerton]

I'm just a little baffled that no big rpg company is doing the same thing that I (or others like me are doing); trying to substantially revise the OGL version of the game and make it better.

Because the OGL game has certain built in assumptions that are obstacles to making it "better" in the way you envisgage (as best I can tell from your posts).

First, it separates advancement in combat ability from advancement in non-combat ability (BAB vs skill points).

Second, besides BAB and skill points, it also has feats as an advancement mechanism.

Third, it treats spells acquisition with a class and level framework - yet another distinct but interacting advancement mechanic.

Fouth, it uses AC and hit points as its fundamental combat resolution mechanic.

I don't know Mutants & Masterminds other than by reputation, but I gather it integrates (1) to (3) above into a points-buy framework. At that point, what is left of the d20 system but the basics of action resolution? Which you could easily enough use for a HARP game, if you divided all the skill bonuses and DB bonuses by 5!

 

[S'mon]

Player: I want Craft (Alchemy) +15. I want to make firebombs or something.
DM: You're first level. Take your skill ranks. You'll be there in a few levels.
Player: I want it now.

Player is being a jerk. He can't be the King of Nyrond or a Huge Ancient Red Dragon, either. This is no different.