POLL: Would you play D&D without a Skill System?

[WayneLigon]

My biggest problem with 3E is that there just aren't enough skill points. As others have suggested, there ought to be some set aside for flavor skills only, or something of the sort.

Indeed. One thing that would help would be to get rid of class skills and just make most skills available to everyone. That would help the 2-skill-point people use their only big allotment of skill points - that 4X at 1st level amount - for some flavor skills. I'd like a fighter who happens to sing well, or has a good Knowledge: Local.

 

[Nadaka]

The 3e system of skills is by no means perfect. But some kind of skill system has to be in place IMO. To me, adventuring isn't just about killin' things and taking their stuff. Its about overcoming challenges in search of a goal. Skills (along with utility spells) define how good you are at defeating challenges you can't quite fix with a the pointy end of a sword.

 

[Zogmo]

Yes!

without skills what is a rogue?


I would want skills to be in my game system. These clarify a charcters background more and in some cases how to roleplay them.

Absolutely!

And that's why it's a ROLE playing game and not a combat based ROLL playing game.

Useless things to do during combat are used heavily in non-combat situations in my campaigns. I incorporate the characters backgrounds and non-combat skills in the overall story arc to enhance the history of the characters and it gives my players a good chance to actually end up caring about what's going on politically and historically within the game, and let's it go well beyond just combat, treasure and levels.

This is one of the critical things that has kept me DMing for so long in my life.

 

[Jackelope King]

Even if one were to concede that Mr. Foster's example is nothing more than a model of a written-down skill system, it comes with several advantages over such a system. One, no flipping through books to find target DC's, lists of synergies, or modifiers. And two, no substantial amount of time micromanaging skill points on your character sheet (or worse for each monster entry!) at character creation and at each level.

Personally, I'm a little surprised that 1 in 3 people polled wouldn't play D&D without skills. Isn't that the way we all used to do it? I do think that some sort of resolution mechanic is handy however, whether it be percentiles, attribute checks, or even C&C's prime system. Nonweapon proficiencies are pretty meh - more than anything, they're pretty much a list of things you can't do. Moving around skill points is just an onus. I want to get into the dungeon, not spend an hour writing up my character!

Why would creating a character keep you from getting into the dungeon? Why would you even want to get into the dungeon without having a character you really want to play? Why would you want to play a character who isn't even different from the other fighter as far as the system is concerned? Oh, I loved those video games back in the day where the only difference between two characters was the color of their shirts, but these days, I want something more. And character building is something that allows me to bring the fun of the game home with me: it doesn't take up time during the game itself, other than the first session (and even that isn't a given... it's perfectly reasonable for players to create their characters at home and just bring them to the table with things like point-buy). The ability to create a more-detailed character (so long as those details are in the right places, which admittedly isn't always true with 3.X) is a plus.

 

[redmagerush]

Personally, I'm a little surprised that 1 in 3 people polled wouldn't play D&D without skills. Isn't that the way we all used to do it? I do think that some sort of resolution mechanic is handy however, whether it be percentiles, attribute checks, or even C&C's prime system. Nonweapon proficiencies are pretty meh - more than anything, they're pretty much a list of things you can't do. Moving around skill points is just an onus. I want to get into the dungeon, not spend an hour writing up my character!

Well, my first DnD book was the Third Edition Player's Handbook. So for me DnD and skill systems are wedded fairly tightly. The first DnD product I owned was NeverWinter Nights, again with a skill system.

I'd been playing RPGs for eight years or so before that, all with completely skill based systems. In fact, until I picked up the Wheel of Time d20 RPG, I'd never seen a game with a class system before. Maybe that is why I see a skill system as vital to a game I'm interested in playing.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Common sense and DM Fiat are acceptable substitutes for a skill system in my opinion. Except for thieves. Thieves need to be able to succeed or fail based on the dice.

I guess we'll settle for grognard baby steps to realizing that a 30 year old design has room for improvement. Why is DM fiat acceptable for hiding, dodging a fireball and swinging a sword, and not swimming past a whirlpool, telling if someone is lying, or tracking a beast? Better question... why is it appropriate for finding traps, and not other secret things (Find Traps theief % skill vs. Search skill).

 

[Psion]

And that's why it's a ROLE playing game and not a combat based ROLL playing game.

Public notice:

Use of the term "roll playing" is not longer considered clever or cute, and is often considered divisive and elitist.

(Not that I disagree with your fundamental position, just sayin', you aren't doing your argument any favors buy invoking that hateful little tidbit.)

 

[Zogmo]

Public notice:

Use of the term "roll playing" is not longer considered clever or cute, and is often considered divisive and elitist.

(Not that I disagree with your fundamental position, just sayin', you aren't doing your argument any favors buy invoking that hateful little tidbit.)

Howdy,
Well I apologize to anyone offended by that statement. I've only got 78 posts to your almost 16,000 so I guess you've been around enough to be offended by something that I'm guessing has been said many times in the past.

I will follow in your footsteps and make sure that anytime someone repeats something that has been said before to call them on it and insist that only unique and original things are posted.

 

[WizarDru]

I played D&D without a skill system from 1981 to 1985; so that would be a YES by definition. At Gen Con 2005, I played Expert D&D with Korgoth with no skill system. At Gen Con 2006, I ran a Gamma World game with no skill system. And at Gen Con '07 I played in diaglo's OD&D game with no skill system. All of these games were good fun.Yep. But the term "skills system" may be too broad to really get anything meaningful out of it. Games like Dogs in the Vineyard, for instance, have a "skills system" but no two entities in the game have the same skill. This seems pretty radically different from D&D's skills.

The poll is specifically concerned with what you would play NOW, not what we've played in the past. In specific, the idea is to determine if the players have moved on to the point where they look for a system, specifically skills in this case, that has grown in importance in the three decades since the game was created. My supplemental post above defined what I'm referring to when discussing 'skills'.

The rogue's abilities under 1e are, IMHO, class abilities, NOT skills. Yes, they function as skills, per se, but for the purposes of our discussion here they are not, because they are specifically tied to class and level (and on occasion, stat), but the player cannot consciously change their relative skill level by choice. One can only change one's "bend bar/lift gate" percentage by either becoming physically stronger OR gaining a level in Fighter. If every character of your level and similar ability score has the exact same ability that you do, then there's a good chance we wouldn't define it as a skill in this discussion. And as mentioned, we're sticking with discussing D&D only, here....games like Octane may have very different ideas of what skills are, but we're looking from the perspective of what is and what may be in D&D, not some of the more esoteric systems available (which is not a judgement of them in either way...I'm just trying to limit the scope of our poll/discussion).

 

[an_idol_mind]

I like the D&D skill system. But I wouldn't mind playing in a skill-less version of the game, either. And if I ever ran a game of AD&D again, I'd probably do so without using the nonweapon proficiencies.