Polymorph & Pregnancy

[Storm Raven]

Re: Re: Polymorph & Pregnancy

It is a factor of their supernatural existence. Remember, your DNA doesn't change - if you can't impregnate someone due to genetic differences, you can't impregnate them while polymorphed, either (if it's merely a question of different size categories and resultant literal physical inability to mate under normal circumstances rather than strict genetics - and I'll leave it at that - you can impregnate someone while polymorphed subject to the depictions above).

Your entire argument has a flaw: it assumes that in a D&D world, creatures heritage is determined by DNA. It is entirely possible that DNA doesn't exist for D&D creatures, they operate on an entirely different model (such as those believed by ancient or midaevil culture).

Even if DNA exists for creatures in a campaign world, the argument also assumes (based on nothing more than supposition), that your DNA doesn't change when you are polymorphed based on the extremely tenuous connection that you retain your type. But type is only used for a variety of magical and supernatural effects, assuming that these effects are tied to your DNA seems a bit of a stretch as well.

 

[WizarDru]

I've noticed a few people reference using dispel magic to reverse the efects of a polymorph other Spell. This is not possible.

To reverse the effects of a polymorphs Other Spell, you need to use another Polymorph Other Spell with the tartget form being "YourSelf".

Might make a difference in a couple of peoples POV.

JC is correct, I think you may be confused by the appelation 'Permanent'. You would be correct, if the duration of the spell were 'instantaneous', but it isn't. The spell merely never wears off on it's own. In other words, I polymorph Other (soon to be Baneful Polymorph) Dragon A. He is now a bull terrier. He will remain so until the spell is removed, or supplanted by another Polymorph to effectively counteract the first one. A disple magic or greater dispelling could remove it two minutes from now, or two hundred years. The spell never expires, until disrupted. In an anti-magic field, the spell would be suppressed, reverting the subject back to normal (and hence, the possibliity of a good story around that concept).

And this is exactly the sort of subject material that I was proposing would make the BoEF useful, I might add. KB, where did Gwen mention that there would be rules for the actual act and a mechanical treatment of rape? I was under the impression that she had said exactly the oppposite, as had AV.

 

[Centaur]

The entire basis for this question was because I was thinking (and have been running in my campaign for a long time) that the duration was Instantaneous and Not Permanent.

Kind of puts things in a whole new light (for me anyway).

 

[Umbran]

it's the DM's option as to whether or not a creature's DNA transforms during the polymorph or if polymorph is merely a form change.

There's actually a step before this:

It's the DM's option as to whether the concept of "DNA" is applicable to creatures in the world.

When trying to come up with a reasonable ruling that can cover multiple worlds that use the same system, it is usually wise to avoid inserting real-world science into the discussion.

While Monte does have the inside scoop on what the authors intended, his explanation does seem to have that weakness - it appears to rely on a modern scientific version of reproductive mechanics to have transferred genetic material "part of the creature".

One can simplify it - avoid all mention of normal biology. Choose siring and carrying a child to be either a natural or Extraordinary ability. Choose ability to cross-breed similarly. Once that's done, the rest pretty much follows logically in the spell description.

 

[LGodamus]

Out of all the posts , I am 100% with the sigil on this topic....
The spell indicates you retain your type , meaning,to me, that the changes do not affect your true being only your form....so no weird cross species odd interbreeding for my game.

 

[Centaur]

New Thread

Based on the sudden relization of a wrong interpretation of the duration of polymorph, I have started a new thread under "House Rules" regarding the implications of changing the duration of the Polymorph Other spell from Permanent to Instantaneous.

Anyone wishing to participate here is a direct link. Polymorph Other "Duration"

Have At!

 

[BOZ]

There's actually a step before this:

It's the DM's option as to whether the concept of "DNA" is applicable to creatures in the world.

When trying to come up with a reasonable ruling that can cover multiple worlds that use the same system, it is usually wise to avoid inserting real-world science into the discussion.

that's basically what i meant.

 

[The Sigil]

It's the DM's option as to whether the concept of "DNA" is applicable to creatures in the world.

When trying to come up with a reasonable ruling that can cover multiple worlds that use the same system, it is usually wise to avoid inserting real-world science into the discussion.

While Monte does have the inside scoop on what the authors intended, his explanation does seem to have that weakness - it appears to rely on a modern scientific version of reproductive mechanics to have transferred genetic material "part of the creature".

One can simplify it - avoid all mention of normal biology. Choose siring and carrying a child to be either a natural or Extraordinary ability. Choose ability to cross-breed similarly. Once that's done, the rest pretty much follows logically in the spell description.

Of course it it usually wise to avoid inserting real-world science into the discussion...

But what I said regarding DNA was, in my mind, basically a shorthand for:

"The polymorph spell's description says that a creature's type does not change when polymorphed.

"A dwarf is made of 'humanoid (dwarf)' stuff.

"Therefore, a dwarf polymorphed into a pony is, in effect, a pony made of 'humanoid (dwarf)' stuff... not pony stuff... to keep its type.

"That the type does not change implies that the form is not what is important so much as the matter that makes it up... and if the stuff that makes up the creature determines type, a convenient shorthand for this is DNA as it is something that is readily understood."

I then DID make the presumption to jump to real-world genetics with the DNA examples (esp. the XX/XY examples). My apologies.

In my experience, though, using "real world" rules is generally a good way to approach a problem unless you have a compelling reason not to - IOW, I assume the "real world" is the default until someone tells me specifically, "it doesn't apply."

Regardless, I tried to make my ruling so that we had the fewest additional assumptions (and I think, given the Type/DNA argument, that my assumption is a "reasonable" interpretation) - one - and the fewest potential rules problems. The solution I proposed fits (IMO) elegantly with the existing rules and pre-empts a lot of potentially sticky situations.

When striking a balance between ease of use and absolutely perfect detail, I'll take "easier to use and universally apply if not quite as detailed/interesting" over "detailed/interesting, but impossible to use without DM fiat in every single case."

IOW, give the players my rule, and there is no argument. Give them an "it depends" rule and the DM can be accused of favoritism - or worse, inconsistent rulings.

But everyone has their own opinions, all equally valid. I just happen to like mine best.

--The Sigil

 

[Centaur]

Regardless, I tried to make my ruling so that we had the fewest additional assumptions (and I think, given the Type/DNA argument, that my assumption is a "reasonable" interpretation) - one - and the fewest potential rules problems. The solution I proposed fits (IMO) elegantly with the existing rules and pre-empts a lot of potentially sticky situations.

There is of course nothing wrong with this assumption.

My assumption has always been that a creatures type is linked to it's Soul or Spirit and that the Body (DNA or not) was just a meat bag that the Soul Resides within.

From this we derive that the polymorph spell affects the meat bag and not the Soul. If we make this assumption then we need to decide if Conception of a child is based on the interaction of Two Souls or if it starts with the Meat bags interacting and is therafter "Possessed" by a spirit. This in itself opens a whole new ball of wax.

 

[Norfleet]

I'd have to say that the effects of a polymorph being placed upon, or dispelled from, a pregnant character, could become extremely messy.

This is not dissimilar from the messy results that occur when a monster which has performed a swallow whole attack on a character who is not dead is abruptly turned into a bunny rabbit.

Depending on the form assumed or reverted to, life support for the internally contained may become impossible, resulting in unpleasant side effects. This as no different from the side effects which result from a polymorph on any character currently hosting a parasitic organism.

As for whether or not a polymorphed character can impregnate or be impregnated, according to the description of polymoph, this is a yes, since the "polymorphed creature acquires the physical and natural abilities of the creature it has been polymorphed into". Don't think it gets much more physical or natural than that.