Polytheism

[GypsyComet]

Re: Polytheism Problems

One of the biggest difficulties I have with polytheism is with racial deities; I'm in the process of redesigning my pantheons for my homebrew and, like many "standard" campaigns, I have separate pantheons for each race (human, elven, orc, etc.). On the one hand, I don't want to homogenize my religions by using the same gods with different aspects- that also has a tendency to mess up "creation myths."

As previously noted, however, creation myths *should* be a bit messed up.

My other concern with that approach is that you can have followers of the same god (but of different aspects) coming into conflict. For example- would a lawful good god allow his elven and human followers to fight against each other in a race war (justified or otherwise)?

The answer to this depends a LOT on how active the god is among his followers and the two nations as a whole. If the two sides both gain direct guidance from the deity (ie. his statues animate and teach the priests and/or masses) then conflict can still result, but are less likely unless this "law" god is actually a bit on the heartless side as well (ie. a hidden streak of LE). If, on the other hand, this Law god is fairly distant ("here is my law, follow it and achieve paradise, but don't bug me until then.") and the two races still manage to practice different cultures under this Law, then conflict is fairly likely just due to the usual mortal crock-headedness...

The other factor, of course, is whether the two nations are, themselves, monotheist or polytheist. Is this Law god the Big (or only) Kahuna for these two nations? Or is he just the patron of the city guard and the library?

On the other hand, the other approach- truly independent deities for each race- has always seemed very cumbersome. I have about a dozen or so "key" deities for my main human kingdom; if you have even half that for each race, you end up with scores of deities.
... this racial deity problem has always bothered me...

Scores of names as seen in Myth, yes, but not necessarily scores of deities. Depending on whether there is a unifying Myth in the world (ie. all the big racial patriarch deities started a brothers, but are now portrayed as the races they created, and no longer get along...), a number of the lesser gods can appear using yet another Gloranthan bit: the "subcult". They either represent one of the big deity's aspects by having mythically reinforced it in the tales, or are different faces of the same deity. The upshot is the same, or can be, mechanically: the main deity has a large collection of Domains, but most of them cannot be taken together, as they represent different subcults. There are two or three Domains which define the Big Guy, and normally a Cleric will take one of these and one from the subcult which suits...

This brings up a question that I've not yet seen heavily addressed in this thread: how is "true" polytheism represented at the level of the divinely gifted: the CLERIC?

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

war, the faithful, and the gods

Someone mentioned the Iliad earlier and I think that that is a fine case study for how a pantheon can react to a war among their faithful. In this epic, here used as a literal as opposed to adjectival sense, the gods of Greece and the eastern mediteranean are all in a tizzy over who a conflict between mortals who follow the pantheon. Now as someone else pointed out the two sides honor all of the gods even though the individual gods tend to favor one side more than another. Bla bla bla, normal many gods confusion, right?

Wrong, the Iliad is filled with specific examples of divine behaviour that perfectly illustrate why pantheism is fun fun fun when done right.

The epic starts with Apollo firing arrows into the Greek host because they dishonored one of his priests. Not a priest who has anything to do with the enemy, just a priest who got raided when the Greek army went foraging. A priest Apollo, who isn't really all that for the Trojans or the Greeks, happens to really respect. Most of the gods take meddle in human affairs because of the victimization of someone they care about or because a group of humans has violated moral/divine etiquette in a way that offends them.

Point one: gods, with a little g, really care about proper relationships and personal relationships vis a vis themselves and the mortals.

Zeus is the general exception, he meddles in moral affairs because other gods and fate want him to.

Point two: in a really interesting pantheon there is always someone who has a different motive. Most of the time a motive arranged around obeying the rules

A major artistic, philosophical, and symbolic element of the poem is the appearance of Achilles' shield. A shield crafted by the gods.
On this shield, the whole of the greek universe and life is depicted. War is an integral part of the natural order represented in this image.

Point three: we see war as something that is inherently unusual and morally questionable. Just look at Christian/Western/Modern ideas of Just War theory. In the Greek view and the view of their gods, and mind you I recognize that this is really simplified and Dr. Crider is going to reach out his intellectual hand and smite me, war is something that happens. Humans go to war, it's part of what we do.

Certain gods do favor Troy or Greece. This has very little to do with who worships them. Aphrodite likes Troy because Troy did her a favor and she has a kid there. Hera and Athena like Greece because Troy did them a disservice. All three gods are honored by both sides. Poseidon even ignores a lack of worship on the part of the Greeks because his interests would be affected by going after them.

Point four: we often think of the gods as being primarily motivated by the worship of mortals. while the greek pantheon is concerned by that, they have actual material and social interests which play a very large role in what groups they will actually support. also the gods want different things, and their interests change.

Conclusion: In the event of a war, the gods aren't likely to have a problem with the fact of the war itself so much as how it is prosecuted, how the god's interests are going to be affected, and what specific individuals are doing what to whom.

So that a god worshipped by two races who are at war is likely to simply make extra certain that both races are obeying the rules and that neither race is doing something like threatening that herd of cattle he or she spent so much time on back in the age of gold. He or she is going to support both sides priests, as long as they act honorably, and probably going to try to keep other gods out of it. If he or she truly felt the war shouldn't be happening he or she would probably attempt to negotiate or dictate the terms of a treaty.

In this case, if the situation were truly Greek, one of the people making the war happen will lie and seek the patronage of another god. The subsequent events of divine/martial conflict, divine arbitration, divine/mortal punishment, civil discord, and adjustment to the order of things will result in several cycles of drama which will in turn form the basis for much of the world's literature.

Now, if this is D&D were talking about, it could happen this way. Or a group of 4-6 adventurers could come along and begin pushing the VCR buttons on the performance of this whole drama as they wreck havoc with the command structure of the opposing armies, steal the divine cattle, elope with the ethical princess who wants to bury her cousins, and kill the villanous king and the faithful god-look it says here he needs golden apples so after he ate the granny smiths we slipped him there is no way he could survive that acid bath-in a hideous misuse of the trap creation system that neither the gm, the game designers, nor the players ever truly intended.

 

[Nellisir]

OK, got a few more minutes now that the bloodshed is over. I am tired, though, so excuse fragmented thoughts and poor elucidation.

IMO, myths and wee tidbits about the gods are one of the best ways of making a pantheon seem real to the players, since most myths involve the interplay of several divinities. Making this myths a relevant part of the game (containing secrets, hints, and clues) helps motive the players to remember and pay attention to them.

It's also legitimate to say "answer unknown" in some cases. Cults, in the Shadowend, are pseudo-divinities "sponsored" by a god or goddess who prefers, for whatever reason, to keep his/er identity a secret. This allows villains with clerical powers without requiring a hundred and one weird little deities (many cults worship animals(Cult of the Rat Mother) or divine artifacts (Cult of the Unholy Hand).

I've only listed the primary aligment axis of each deity, and allow priests along that axis. Aur, the Stonelord, is a Lawful deity with lawful good, lawful neutral, and lawful evil worshippers. As a member of the Elder Host, Aur isn't very involved and his worshippers often come into conflict as they support different rulers and lords. They accept this as Aur's will, and battle it out.

The Elder Host are all Greater Powers. The Dalerain range from Intermediate to Demi-powers. Chance of intervention IMC was roughly scaled as follows: Greater Powers have a 1% chance of intervening in a situation that personally affects them (child in danger, significant artifact or source of power in danger, massive display of worship or sacrifice); intermediate powers have a 1% chance of intervening in a life and death situation for one of their priests; lesser powers have a roughly 1% chance of intervening or appearing in a significant event that affects one of their priests (birth of a child, marriage); demi-powers have a roughly 1% chance of intervening in a situation that affects one of their worshippers (not necessarily a priest, but a faithful and true worshipper).

Nell.

The Kings of Woe are 3 evil, undead kings whose barrows open for one night (1 barrow per night, on 3 subsequent nights) and release them to terrorize their surroundings. The party has 12 hours to get in to each barrow and figure out how to kill each king for good. Unfortunately, tonight they decided to split up the party, open (nearly) all the doors, and trip all the traps, all at the same time. I don't know what it adds up to, but 5 9th-level character just survived a CR 3 (barrowdead imp), CR 9 (3 CR 6 harrow hounds), CR 5 (gravewight owlbear), CR 4 (2 spiked pit traps), CR 4 (green slime), CR 4 (wall of fire trap), CR 4 (spike stones), CR 1 (ghost child) encounter. The fighter/cleric/runesmith was stunned and devoured, the paladin fell in a pit and couldn't get out until combat was almost over, the fighter/ranger was reduced to 5 hit points before she went and hid, and the cleric/monk and fighter/barbarian/rogue/drunken rager are both at about half full hitpoints.

They are considering running away and letting the Kings do what they want. They're only partway into the first barrow.

Cheers
Nell.
Who didn't think they'd open -all- the doors, and fight in the hall they knew was trapped....

 

[WayneLigon]

The lastest campaign I did focused on two major faiths and the reasons why they'd probably forever remain apart.

The Imperial Faith is a polytheisitc faith, though not with a plethora of gods. I wanted to keep things very simple and basic. the imperial faith has been around for a couple thousand years in one form or another, with the various powers that existed beforehand gradually being merged or taken into the faith to the point where they lose all idenity.

I wanted the Imperials to be dispassionate, capable of almost enything, and resigned to a kind of 'Fate' beleif, so I made the two major gods Neutral.

-----

The Imperial Faith

The Patriarch
LN
Domains: Law, Strength, Knowledge, Earth
Priest Alignment: LG, LN, LE
Dogma: Strength of will and character is the path to success and the ultimate reward of serving the god in the afterlife. Service is a virtue, either to the community or to one’s superiors. Knowledge brings safety, security and control over one’s situation; carefully used and monitored, knowledge is virtuous and can only aid the community. Family and community are the two great pillars that hold up society; support both and you support the work of stability and peace.

The Matron
CN
Domains: Chaos, Destruction, Death, Air
Priest Alignment: CG, CN, CE
Dogma: Freedom of will, of expression, of self is the only virtue. Once you achieve freedom, all else follows it. Freedom from the rule of others is better than bread, better than life itself. Never let anyone chain you. Death is merely a change, freedom from the shackles of flesh and mortality. Do not fear it.

The Son
LG
Domains: Good, Sun, War, Fire
Priest Alignment: LG, LN, NG
Dogma: Find the dark enemies that dog our heels and burn them out, then put them to the sword! Strength of arms is a telling test of a person, be it his character or morals. Sometimes only force can oppose and protect. Be active, be outgoing; seek and find instead of waiting for things to come to you. Obey your superiors, for they have more experience than you. Be strong and forthright, truthful and brave, and honorable.

The Daughter
CG
Domains: Healing, Protection, Travel, Water
Priest Alignment: CG, CN, NG
Dogma: Heal those sick in body and mind, bring peace to those for whom strife is a way of life, end suffering, create understanding. Everyone deserves peace and rest, safety from those who would do them harm, and freedom from want or need.

----

Their 'opponents' were the followers of the Druidic faith, the faith in the pure creative power of nature. They themselves were divided into camps, but not actual, different religons: NG -- The order of the Unicorn. TN/LN/CN - The Followers of the One Tree. NE -- The order of the Gorecrow.

The druidic faith encourages creativity, newness, passion, individuality. The Imperials encourace exactly the opposite, save for some factions among The Daughter.

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

IMC, I have two greater gods, a NG creator and a NE (once also NG) destroyer. The creator and destroyer were husband and wife, and so I enter into a Hellenistic genealogy of the lesser gods, their children. Also taking a page from Greek myth, the number three pops up alot, and a set of triplets forms a lesser pantheon (for example, the craft gods and magic gods). Most people are devoted to one of the lesser pantheons rather than the "high" pantheon.

Enter the monotheistic state, which is fiercely devoted to the creator and brutal about hunting down anything associated with the destroyer. They acknowledge the other gods, but see them as powers on par with saints.

 

[d20fool]

Realistic Religion

Has anyone checked out the Dragon articles in 283? I really liked the "Realistic Religion" one where the guy gave archetypes for everything. I can use it like a checklist to make a polytheistic religion that simply "feels" right, both for the actual gods and the myths and holidays.

Does anybody else use this one?

d20 fool

 

[Psion]

I'm sort of into a "multitude of deities" feel like many eastern mythologies. I have more typical western pantheons over particular cultures or races, but those are sort of just "associations" of deities concerned with/popular with the local people. Some deities exist in multiple pantheons just like you might have different social cirlces or realms of reponsibility. Many people forgo the local popular pantheons and worship the multitude of deities/spirits that exist throughout the land. IMC, there is not a clear distinction between deities and animist spirits.

 

[Tuerny]

I'm sort of into a "multitude of deities" feel like many eastern mythologies. I have more typical western pantheons over particular cultures or races, but those are sort of just "associations" of deities concerned with/popular with the local people. Some deities exist in multiple pantheons just like you might have different social cirlces or realms of reponsibility. Many people forgo the local popular pantheons and worship the multitude of deities/spirits that exist throughout the land. IMC, there is not a clear distinction between deities and animist spirits.

I see, with the multitude of deities option how do you make you deities different enough to avoid seeming like they are taken from the melting pot of gods that are found in settings such as Greyhawk, FR, and such?

With the lack of distinction between animist spirits and deities, does this mean that the animist spirits have individual clerics too?

Also how does the presence of animist spirits present itself into the setting?
Do they have to negotiate with river spirits for sage passage down rivers or is it more of a background thing?

 

[Psion]

B] I see, with the multitude of deities option how do you make you deities different enough to avoid seeming like they are taken from the melting pot of gods that are found in settings such as Greyhawk, FR, and such? [/B]

I really don't bother.

In actuality, in my game, some deities that seem the same ARE the same. And others that are close to the same are merely aspects of the same divinite.

I have a system I call "guises, aspects, and mantles."

A deity that is actually another deity with a different name (usually because it is being worshipped in a different culture) is a guise.

Some deities fragment and create slightly different "sub-deities" in order to access a wider pool of faith power. These are called aspects.

Some deities find other deities or near divine beings (or apotheosize powerful mortals) and empower them in order to help them extend their reach and power. Think of it as "divine outsourcing." This is called a mantle.

But otherwise, I just try to make the deities distinct in character.

With the lack of distinction between animist spirits and deities, does this mean that the animist spirits have individual clerics too?

Yes... no... maybe.

Some animist sprits are powerful enough that they can have their own clerics or dedicated divine spellcasters. See "small gods" in Spells & Spellcraft.

But more commonly, less powerful spirit entities cannot demand the same sort of fealty that true deities can, and animists priests revere multiple deities. So for this I use shamans. (See Shamans or Shaman's Handbook. )

Also how does the presence of animist spirits present itself into the setting?
Do they have to negotiate with river spirits for sage passage down rivers or is it more of a background thing?

Normally you wouldn't have to negotiate with spirits unless they were enrages or disquited for some reason... spirits are normally very aloof and many normally slumber. However, they tend to become awakened in areas near ley lines, so in some more magical areas you are more likely to come face to face with a spirit entity.

 

[Desdichado]

I don't have anything to say that's really innovative or new, but here's what I've done in the past.

First, I take the Dragon Magazine on clerics (about a year and a half ago?) and look through what it's got there. There's a good article on common mythological archetypes - gods and goddesses that appear in almost every world mythology. That's what I start with, adding or subtracting as makes sense for my world until I have a full, well-rounded pantheon. I don't worry too much about potential overlap of domains or portfolios, as many real world pantheistic societies (or at least the representation of them that we see now, many centuries after the fact in most cases) featured this same overlap.

Then, for each god, I write a couple of "myths" -- stories, origins, something they did or something they are. Many of these will support each other indirectly, some of them will contradict each other, but that's the core "mythology" of the land, and of course, depending on where you live and whom you honor, you may accept some stories and discount others as heresy or at least uninformed misinformation.

Then, I do away entirely with the concept of patron deities. Everyone worships the entire pantheon (with few exceptions) when it is appropriate to do so. You don't pray to the god of war for your harvest, for healing, at the death of your grandmother, etc. -- you pray to the deity who has influence over that aspect of the mortal existence.

Then, to spice it up, some gods have mystery cults that you can join. This usually involves more esoteric mythological information (and possibly an arbitrary skill bump to Knowledge (religion).