Pope to change D&D cosmology

[fusangite]

yeah, wouldn't have expected it from the Aztecs... But I only know the "popular wisdom" on them and wouldn't be suprized to find some of that was propaganda.

The Mexico Valley was an incredibly densely populated place. So, one of the ironies of Aztec society is that the rates of per capita violence were very very low. But, as we know from modern-day crime reporting, people don't think about crime as a per-capita thing; they think about it in terms of sheer number. As a result, cities are perceived as more violent than rural areas whereas the reverse is almost always the case.

That stated, ideologically, Aztec (more appropriately called Nahua) society did really revere violence and war but, in order to minimize the economic and demographic impact of war, they developed an institution called the Flowery War which entailed a highly ritualized kind of proxy war that maintained the idea of constant war between the city states with minimum violence. Sort of like medieval European tournaments with 20 times the population density and human sacrifice built in.

 

[DonTadow]

This just in..

Celestial planes, as well as the United States of America, have sealed off their borders to Slaadi refugees.

President Bush was quoted as saying "We just can't support those frog guys with our enconomy out of whack, because it's just not in whack right now."

Thor of the Asgard Pantheon, however, was angry at Odin's decision to follow suite with America, citing that frog legs 'taste like chicken'.

Many Angels and upper-class Americans breathe a sigh of relief, returning to their evil-judging and golf games, respectively.

Meanwhile, Protestant Officials spoke out against the abolishment of Limbo and are threatening to take away Purgatory in retaliation....

"George Bush hates Slaad People," Kanye West, quoted on the "Find the Slaad a home celebrity telethon. Standing next to him was Mike Myers whom said after the show. "I can't believe I fell for this stunt twice, where's my agent!"

 

[Cheiromancer]

I don't think Limbo is being abolished entirely- it is just no longer the default destination of babies and virtuous pagans who die before being baptized. In other words, some petitioners who would otherwise have gone there are going somewhere else, instead.

It seems likely that the intent is that these petitioners never went there at all- so a little bit of cosmological revisionism is necessary; making it so that they never went there. But it is not like the petitioners were CN- they are generally neutral or good, so ensuring they don't go to Limbo (or are removed if they got there somehow) isn't a big deal.

As for how they are doing it, well, I don't know, but consider this: these are theologians of international reputation, so they all should be high level experts with lots of ranks of know:religion. Think of 30 of them, and what they could accomplish with some kind of ritual/invocation. Especially a ritual/invocation that takes years to research for just this one task- to redirect some stray petitioners away from an outer plane that doesn't even match their alignment.

As for the whole heaven/hell thing- it is pretty clear that "heaven" refers to all the upper planes, and "hell" refers to the lower planes, at least when one talks about the pope's mandate that what binds on earth will be bound in heaven, and the promise that "the gates of hell" will not prevail against him. Limbo is on the border between the Upper and Lower planes, so is symbolically one of the gates of Hell. If he wants to bind the souls of these petitioners somewhere in the upper planes, that's certainly within his mandate.

I don't know if there is any information on what mystical benefits there are for being the head of a church with several hundred million worshipers, but it should be pretty substantial. Put the pope and these theologians together, and they should be able to do quite a lot.

 

[Stone Dog]

yeah, wouldn't have expected it from the Aztecs... But I only know the "popular wisdom" on them and wouldn't be suprized to find some of that was propaganda.

There was an interesting article in National Geographic many many months ago that mentioned growing evidence suggesting that the Aztecs would dope up their victims to the point where they might not have even been concious. The article said a new theory in anthropology said that the Aztecs did what they had to do because the gods almost destroyed themselves in the previous age and the only way to keep them and the world in existance was to feed them in hearts and blood.
It was interesting to think the Aztecs might have only doing what they felt had to be done for the sake of the world and actually took steps to keep their victims from suffering too much.

 

[WayneLigon]

As for how they are doing it, well, I don't know, but consider this: these are theologians of international reputation, so they all should be high level experts with lots of ranks of know:religion. Think of 30 of them, and what they could accomplish with some kind of ritual/invocation. Especially a ritual/invocation that takes years to research for just this one task- to redirect some stray petitioners away from an outer plane that doesn't even match their alignment.

That's... a really cool idea, especially for a modern magic setting. 'Theonic Engineering' could create and destroy planes of existance, engineer gods into and out of existance, gather parts of disparate planes into one, break apart the Astral and Etherial (or put up barriers in them). The 're-directing souls' thing is a great idea. They could be used to power the greater rituals once things get of the ground - instead of going to their place of rest, say, all the souls destined for The Seven Heavens end up in a big mason (Or Mason?) jar somewhere, ready to be used as fuel to create a new plane, build a safe pathway throughthe Astral, construct one of those cool Astral Citidals, make a demiplane, etc...

 

[Henrix]

As for the whole heaven/hell thing- it is pretty clear that "heaven" refers to all the upper planes, and "hell" refers to the lower planes, at least when one talks about the pope's mandate that what binds on earth will be bound in heaven, and the promise that "the gates of hell" will not prevail against him.

Or perhaps the pope hasn't put many of his precious skill points in knowledge: the planes! Is it even a class skill for him?

 

[fusangite]

There was an interesting article in National Geographic many many months ago that mentioned growing evidence suggesting that the Aztecs would dope up their victims to the point where they might not have even been concious. The article said a new theory in anthropology said that the Aztecs did what they had to do because the gods almost destroyed themselves in the previous age and the only way to keep them and the world in existance was to feed them in hearts and blood.
It was interesting to think the Aztecs might have only doing what they felt had to be done for the sake of the world and actually took steps to keep their victims from suffering too much.

While the anaesthetic thing is an interesting idea, I think we would be hard-pressed to find a civilization that engaged in sacrifice, human or animal, for anything other than altruistic ends. I don't want to sound like an Ayn Rand follower here but in this instance, she may have a point.

 

[Cheiromancer]

That's... a really cool idea, especially for a modern magic setting. 'Theonic Engineering' could create and destroy planes of existance, engineer gods into and out of existance, gather parts of disparate planes into one, break apart the Astral and Etherial (or put up barriers in them). The 're-directing souls' thing is a great idea. They could be used to power the greater rituals once things get of the ground - instead of going to their place of rest, say, all the souls destined for The Seven Heavens end up in a big mason (Or Mason?) jar somewhere, ready to be used as fuel to create a new plane, build a safe pathway throughthe Astral, construct one of those cool Astral Citidals, make a demiplane, etc...

Those are pretty ambitious tasks. Your modern magic setting would have to be pretty epic for even small demiplanes to be created or destroyed in this way. And it doesn't seem very lawful good to use holy souls as fuel!

One other thought- psychopomps are angels whose task it is to guide the souls of the departed to their final destination. Could a high level ritual enable the leader of a powerful religion change the destination of a few doubtful cases? Nothing radical, like sending holy souls into hell, but giving suicides the opportunity to repent posthumously, making sure that neutral good souls don't end up in limbo, and so on.

Or perhaps the pope hasn't put many of his precious skill points in knowledge: the planes! Is it even a class skill for him?

What "heaven" and "hell" refers to in certain sacred texts- I'd allow that as a knowledge religion check. Basic cosmological questions (like whether there are several lower planes or just one) should be a DC 10 or 15, shouldn't they? Probably 15, since otherwise anyone could make an untrained check- and you certainly need a little background on the subject.

I don't know if real world classes have access to knowledge: the planes. If they do (without some sort of weird feat or prestige class) he should have a few ranks, or at least have access to an academic who does. So the pope should know if anyone does.

And that's without using the Infallibility class ability. Which originally was broken, but now it has been nerfed almost to the point of uselessness.

 

[Henrix]

And that's without using the Infallibility class ability. Which originally was broken, but now it has been nerfed almost to the point of uselessness.

A laugh point there, Cheiromancer!

 

[Kristivas]

"George Bush hates Slaad People," Kanye West, quoted on the "Find the Slaad a home celebrity telethon. Standing next to him was Mike Myers whom said after the show. "I can't believe I fell for this stunt twice, where's my agent!"

Best.. reply.. ever..!

Wow! I've mentioned the breast tree in about five threads before and nary a bite; now everybody wants one.

I'll cetainly take a bite! Erm.. maybe a nibble........