D&D General Pope Wars, nothing but Pope Wars

[Zardnaar]

A variant of this would be Terry Pratchett's Small Gods. The religion has become so dominated by doctrine and structure that what people really believe in at this point is not the god, but the Church. Almost nobody has a direct connection to the deity anymore, so their voice and message has been lost.

True but in D&D you can dial up the god and ask wassup.

 

[MarkB]

True but in D&D you can dial up the god and ask wassup.

But if the religion you follow has become disconnected from that god, you're likely to just get a busy signal.

 

[Voadam]

Also the commune and divination spells in various D&D editions often have a cryptic answer option which makes them less absolute answers if the spell answers that way.

 

[humble minion]

Also the commune and divination spells in various D&D editions often have a cryptic answer option which makes them less absolute answers if the spell answers that way.

In 5e, the commune spell description specifically says that it gives ‘correct’ answers, in completely unambiguous yes/no form (with an ‘unclear’ option as a dm get out of jail free card for a case when a y/n would result in a misleading oversimplification)

Divination has always been a bit fuzzy, but commune is written in quite black and white terms.

Not that this should discourage people from running this type of campaign though, just to be aware of the likely issues beforehand. One possible solution would be to assume the church imposes cultural/hierarchical/theological limitations on the use of Commune etc (I mean, we’re obviously talking about a very structured clergy, given they have a pope, so church law should be a thing). Maybe only clergy over a certain rank (political rank inside the hierarchy, not just in-game cleric) are allowed to use Commune? Maybe you’re required to spend a significant period of time in study before using it, rather than waste god’s time by asking a question they already answered in their holy book? Maybe you can only use it to ask about the world outside the church, while questioning the nature or opinions of the deity could be considered heresy or a sign of weak faith? Maybe it can only be cast on certain feast days, or at a ceremony in front of an entire congregation who’ll all hear the answers?

Theres options here. And if you’re running a game in which an ‘antipope’ type situation arises, church law and tradition is going to be very important, so there’s some possibilities to work with.

 

[Amphytrion]

I use this a lot in my campaigns.

For my latest Waterdeep game, the clergy of Lathander is split down the middle regarding beliefs about his origins:

• Those who believe him to be reincarnated Aumanator, old Netherese god of the sun, keeper of time, and master of law. This faction would like to completely displace the Church of Tyr as the judicial branch of Waterdeep.
• Those who believe him to be an "imported" god of elven origin, alongside Selûne and Sune. These tie that trio to Corellon, Sehanine, and Hanali, who all have matching portfolios. They do not believe in the more rigid aspect of Aumanator-Lathander.

There are high-ranking priests of both sides, so there is a "dawnmaster" and an "anti-dawnmaster", as you described. Lathander responds positively to attempts of commune from both sides. This is another god is simply coopting the spell and impersonating Lathander in the case of group #1. This idea of coopting came from the Theros book, which has great advice on all divine stuff.

 

[Zardnaar]

I use this a lot in my campaigns.

For my latest Waterdeep game, the clergy of Lathander is split down the middle regarding beliefs about his origins:

• Those who believe him to be reincarnated Aumanator, old Netherese god of the sun, keeper of time, and master of law. This faction would like to completely displace the Church of Tyr as the judicial branch of Waterdeep.
• Those who believe him to be an "imported" god of elven origin, alongside Selûne and Sune. These tie that trio to Corellon, Sehanine, and Hanali, who all have matching portfolios. They do not believe in the more rigid aspect of Aumanator-Lathander.

There are high-ranking priests of both sides, so there is a "dawnmaster" and an "anti-dawnmaster", as you described. Lathander responds positively to attempts of commune from both sides. This is another god is simply coopting the spell and impersonating Lathander in the case of group #1. This idea of coopting came from the Theros book, which has great advice on all divine stuff.

It's a really old plot hook directly from 3E and Amaunators fate and dawn cataclysm were hinted at in 2E

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It's a really old plot hook directly from 3E and Amaunators fate and dawn cataclysm were hinted at in 2E

There is a side quest related to this in Baldur’s Gate 2.

 

[Alzrius]

True but in D&D you can dial up the god and ask wassup.

I like to think that it's in a god's interests not to deliver an unambiguous announcement as to which sect of their church is in the right.

That's because mortals are fickle, and even gods can't be certain that what's keeping their religion popular today will still be true tomorrow. A breakaway sect might become the next Big Thing (possibly bigger than the current church), whereas the existing institution might find itself losing ground with the populace, costing the god worship.

Or to put it another way, even in a world where the gods are real and active, trends are still a thing and even religions need to change with the times. So a god might very well want to sit back and passively support both groups just to see which one has staying power.

 

[Voadam]

In 5e, the commune spell description specifically says that it gives ‘correct’ answers, in completely unambiguous yes/no form (with an ‘unclear’ option as a dm get out of jail free card for a case when a y/n would result in the misleading oversimplification)

The unclear option in 5e commune is for things outside the contacted deity or divine proxy's knowledge. If y/n would be misleading or contrary to the deity's interests there can be a short phrase instead of a yes no. The spell will never generate false answers, but it can fail to answer depending on the question and situation and who exactly is contacted (a deity can have multiple proxies who can have different knowledge).

"You contact your deity or a divine proxy and ask up to three questions that can be answered with a yes or no. You must ask your questions before the spell ends. You receive a correct answer for each question.
Divine beings aren't necessarily omniscient, so you might receive "unclear" as an answer if a question pertains to information that lies beyond the deity's knowledge. In a case where a one-word answer could be misleading or contrary to the deity's interests, the DM might offer a short phrase as an answer instead."