Possible Monster Writeup Errors

[Kirowan]

I was looking through my 3.5 MM again and noticed some writeups that might be in error. Could you guys take a look?

1. In the Wyvern's attack entry on page 259, it has a sting or talon or bite all listed at +10 to hit. Shouldn't the talon and bite be at +8 since they are secondary weapons?

2. The Xill on the same page has using 4 claws as one of its attack options. They are listed as +5 to hit and (1d4+2, 1d4+1) damage. I don't get it. Shouldn't two of the claws be designated as primary weapons and receive a +7 to hit and the other two be secondary with a +5? The damage is correct, it's just that the to hit bonus seems off.

Thanks,

Nick

 

[andargor]

I was looking through my 3.5 MM again and noticed some writeups that might be in error. Could you guys take a look?

1. In the Wyvern's attack entry on page 259, it has a sting or talon or bite all listed at +10 to hit. Shouldn't the talon and bite be at +8 since they are secondary weapons?

2. The Xill on the same page has using 4 claws as one of its attack options. They are listed as +5 to hit and (1d4+2, 1d4+1) damage. I don't get it. Shouldn't two of the claws be designated as primary weapons and receive a +7 to hit and the other two be secondary with a +5? The damage is correct, it's just that the to hit bonus seems off.

Thanks,

Nick

The "attack" entry is for single attacks. The "full attack" entry lists them with the proper bonuses.

There are some other errors in the 3.5 SRD discovered by Cyberknight, and confirmed by Andy Collins to be also missing from the 3.5 MM. This is the relevant info:

Here is what I recieved from Andy in an email today.

Hello Bryan,

I checked the SRD against the Monster Manual to find the missing information for you, but it turns out most of these omissions originated in the MM. Which means I didn't screw up too much, but also means I don't have that many answers to send you.

The Xorn's Base Attack/Grapple line was left out of the Monster Manual. The zombie wyvern and gray render's space and reach was my mistake: the zombie wyvern is 10ft/5ft and the zombie gray render is 10ft/10ft. Monstrous centipedes are missing this information in the MM. Monstrous scorpions are missing this in the MM.

Assuming that the missing data was unintentional (and I can't see how it could be anything else) it'll all be added back when I get official errata from R&D. And obviously the mistakes that are my fault will be corrected. I'll forward this information to R&D in case they weren't aware of the omissions.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.


Andy Smith
Publishing/d20 Licensing
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.



-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Gillispie [mailto:bryang@macc.edu]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:15 AM
To: Smith, Andrew
Subject: RSRD omissions


Mr. Smith,

Looking through the RSRD I found a few creatures that had entries omitted.

The Xorn had it's base attack and grapple entries left out.
The Wyvern Zombie and Gray Render Zombie had their space and reach left out. The Monstrous Centipedes had their treasure and alignment left out. The Monstrous Scorpions (tiny, small and medium) had their treasure left out.

Were those items meant to be omitted? I am in the process of creating material under the OGL that will contain these creatures and didn't know if the RSRD would be updated with the missing information or if I need to create or extrapolate the information from the other creatures in the RSRD.

BTW great job on the RSRD files. They are MUCH easier to view than the 3.0 files!

Thank you,

Bryan Gillispie

Andargor

 

[Kirowan]

Page 6 of the 3.5 MM states that "a creature can use on of its secondary natural weapons when making an attack action, but if it does it takes an attack penalty, as noted in the Full Attack section."

In other words, even if you take a standard action and make a single attack with a secondary weapon, you still suffer the normal penalties. That's why I think the Wyvern's writeup is in error. Am I missing something?

Nick

 

[andargor]

Page 6 of the 3.5 MM states that "a creature can use on of its secondary natural weapons when making an attack action, but if it does it takes an attack penalty, as noted in the Full Attack section."

In other words, even if you take a standard action and make a single attack with a secondary weapon, you still suffer the normal penalties. That's why I think the Wyvern's writeup is in error. Am I missing something?

Nick

The full quote is this (from 3.5 SRD):

If the creature uses natural attacks, the natural weapon given here is the creature’s primary natural weapon. If the creature has several different weapons at its disposal, the alternatives are shown, with each different attack separated by the word “or.” A creature can use one of its secondary natural weapons when making an attack action, but if it does it takes an attack penalty, as noted in the Full Attack section below.

The attack entry for the Wyvern is:

Sting +10 melee (1d6+4 plus poison) or talon +10 melee (2d6+4) or bite +10 melee (2d8+4)

The full attack entry is:

Sting +10 melee (1d6+4 plus poison) and bite +8 melee (2d8+4) and 2 wings +8 melee (1d8+2) and 2 talons +8 melee (2d6+4)

This means that Sting, Talon and Bite are considered primary natural weapons for the Wyvern, and do not suffer any penalties when used with an attack action.

Wings could be used in an attack action, but they are not listed in the Attack entry, and are therefore secondary natural weapons which suffer the penalty as described in the Full Attack entry.

Andargor

 

[Kirowan]

Well, I found out that the Wyvern's entry is correct. The answer is on page 299 under the attack bonus heading. It directly conflicts with what's on page 6, but other monster writeups have it this way so I'm going with 299.

Still can't figure out the Xill.

Nick

 

[andargor]

Well, I found out that the Wyvern's entry is correct. The answer is on page 299 under the attack bonus heading. It directly conflicts with what's on page 6, but other monster writeups have it this way so I'm going with 299.

Still can't figure out the Xill.

Nick

Same answer for the Xill. Claw is a primary natural weapon, as it is listed in the Attack entry. So one claw at +7.

It has Multiattack and Multiweapon fighting, so it suffers -2 to all attacks when using 4 claws in a Full Attack action.

Andargor

 

[Kirowan]

It has Multiattack and Multiweapon fighting, so it suffers -2 to all attacks when using 4 claws in a Full Attack action.

Andargor

So, he doesn't have any primary weapons? Shouldn't 2 claws be treated as primary weapons while the other two are treated as secondary weapons and receive a -2 to attack (since the Xill does have multiattack)? If the Xill was using a shortsword in each of his 4 hands, then -2 all around would make sense, but if he is using his 4 claws, shouldn't he be following the normal monster primary/secondary natural weapon rules?

Nick

 

[andargor]

So, he doesn't have any primary weapons? Shouldn't 2 claws be treated as primary weapons while the other two are treated as secondary weapons and receive a -2 to attack (since the Xill does have multiattack)? If the Xill was using a shortsword in each of his 4 hands, then -2 all around would make sense, but if he is using his 4 claws, shouldn't he be following the normal monster primary/secondary natural weapon rules?

Nick

I really don't understand... well, what you don't understand. The Xill's primary weapons are: Short Sword, Claw, Longbow. With an attack action (1 action, 1 attack), it therefore gets it's full bonus with any one of these weapons.

With a Full Attack action, it can strike with 2 Short Swords and 2 Claws, or 4 Claws, or 2 Longbows. Since all of these are primary weapons, they do not take any penalties for being secondary weapons, but they do take penalties for having multiple attacks.

If you wish to state in your campaign that the Xill's primary weapons are 2 claws, and the other 2 are secondary, then go ahead. But that's not what's in the MM/SRD.

Andargor

 

[Kirowan]

With a Full Attack action, it can strike with 2 Short Swords and 2 Claws, or 4 Claws, or 2 Longbows. Since all of these are primary weapons, they do not take any penalties for being secondary weapons, but they do take penalties for having multiple attacks.

I apologize for frustrating you. I think I'm just being particularly dense.

You see, if the claws of the Xill were all primary weapons, they wouldn't suffer a penalty at all when using all of them. For example, a troll attacks with 2 claws and a bite. Its claws are primary weapons and he doesn't suffer a penalty at all when using them both at the same time during a full attack action. Same with a treant. It gets 2 slams with no penalty since they are its primary weapons.

So, if the 4 claws were the Xill's primary weapons, they should all be at +7 melee (1d4+2) with no penalty.

Nick

 

[Kirowan]

Bump.

Nick