D&D (2024) Postmortem: 10 Ideas in 5e that didn't quite work...

[payn]

Versatile is for small sized characters, basically. Not defending it, but that's basically what it's for. A halfling can use a longsword in both hands to get a d10 without disadvantage.

And I completely agree, there are many design choices in 5e that I can't get my head around, since they don't seem to make a lot of sense. The entire design around saving throws seems backwards to me. I would have preferred 4e's approach, or something similar, which would let you use one of two ability scores to determine a save/defense (so Reflex is based on either Dex or Int) and have three of them, which is super elegant.

Plus, the game isn't clear exactly what makes a spell need a Charisma save, either. I mean, you look at Banishment. Why is it a Charisma save? Because nothing else makes sense?

I dont see what's so elegant about every character having identical saves with different names? Seems lazy to me.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I dont see what's so elegant about every character having identical saves with different names? Seems lazy to me.

I can see why some dex saves could be substituted by int saves... But the otherway round... not so much.

I could however see some spells being resisted by 2 saves.

Fear: vs wis or cha.
Mind affecting/visual illusions: int or wis
Fireball: int or dex
Ice blast: dex or con

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

The nice thing about 4e defense setup (pick the better of two stats for Fort/Ref/Wil each) was that it gave martials Charisma as an alternative to Wis. Just being able to be charismatic was an extra mechanically valid character option, finally.

Str/Con this did not help at all, as everyone wants Con anyway, so this just encouraged to dump Str even more.

Int/Dex was closer, as while Dex had more things that use it, you could substitute Int for AC/Init.

 

[James Gasik]

I dont see what's so elegant about every character having identical saves with different names? Seems lazy to me.

The idea is you have three saves, but you can use one of two different ability scores to provide the bonus for them.

So Fortitude is based on the higher of Str/Con, Reflex the higher of Dex/Int, and Will the higher of Wis/Cha.

 

[James Gasik]

The nice thing about 4e defense setup (pick the better of two stats for Fort/Ref/Wil each) was that it gave martials Charisma as an alternative to Wis. Just being able to be charismatic was an extra mechanically valid character option, finally.

The other two defenses weren't interesting at all, though - Str/Con (everyone wants Con anyway) and Int/Dex (everyone wants Dex except Wizards who don't even have to think about this).

Do remember though that each class has a primary attribute and a secondary based on subclass in 4e, so while you might want Con, you're not going to be able to give it the same build priority as a class that actually uses Con to determine it's class abilities.*

*funky "V-classes" like the Warlock notwithstanding.

So if I'm a Fighter, being able to prioritize Strength over Constitution to keep my Fortitude defense high is pure bonus.

 

[payn]

The nice thing about 4e defense setup (pick the better of two stats for Fort/Ref/Wil each) was that it gave martials Charisma as an alternative to Wis. Just being able to be charismatic was an extra mechanically valid character option, finally.

The other two defenses weren't interesting at all, though - Str/Con (everyone wants Con anyway) and Int/Dex (everyone wants Dex except Wizards who don't even have to think about this). It's not like there was a reason to go 'hmm, I hate hitpoints/initiative, let me pick that other stat in the pairing instead' when it's not your main class stat already.

What do you mean finally? That was doable in 3E and made even better in PF1. I do think that 3E/PF1 still had the best stat variety (but totally borked math) amongst options. IT just so happened they made non-combat stuff compete with combat and that was a huge mistake. Modern design seems to have gone into this tight package where every single character has 2-3 different arrays. Pretty boring and predictable. Worse, every single build is identical they just pew pew with different flavor.

The idea is you have three saves, but you can use one of two different ability scores to provide the bonus for them.

So Fortitude is based on the higher of Str/Con, Reflex the higher of Dex/Int, and Will the higher of Wis/Cha.

No, no, no, I get it, but its lazy as hell. Also, a big part of the "everybody is the same" complaint. One which I might add has carried over a bit into 5E and is potentially the worst yet in PF2. So, this is not just a 4E thing (anymore).

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

What do you mean finally? That was doable in 3E and made even better in PF1.

Possible in the way that as a warrior your Will save was going to be bad anyway, so you might as well tank it on purpose..?

 

[James Gasik]

Huh, I didn't think of it as lazy at all. It went a long way towards making all ability scores equally viable, I thought. I mean, I would think having 6 saves was equally lazy, especially with the way those 6 saves were then used, with three being "major" saves, and the other three being "well, this might happen sometimes". A case might be made for Strength saves, but those could have just been Str checks (as was pointed out previously).

 

[James Gasik]

Possible in the way that as a warrior your Will save was going to be bad anyway, so you might as well tank it on purpose..?

I think he might be referring to the Feats that let you use different things to determine saving throw bonuses.

 

[payn]

Possible in the way that as a warrior your Will save was going to be bad anyway, so you might as well tank it on purpose..?

So, the idea putting points in charisma means that will must be tanked? I can see this, but fortunately 3E/PF1 allowed a lot of ways around that via feats and equipment. You were not stuck with what you were stuck with.