Pounce Ability?

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, the bonus for charging is good only for your next attack, though the penalties last until your next turn.

Well, it's for 'the attack roll'. It doesn't specify 'next single attack' like feint or True Strike or whatever.

So if you have an ability that allows you to substitute multiple attacks for the single attack normally made as part of a charge, you'd have a case for arguing that the +2 applies to all of them.

Pounce as written just doesn't happen to be that ability

-Hyp.

 

[sullivan]

So... you charge and make one attack, and then make a separate full attack, apart from one attack that would normally be in a full attack but isn't, because it was in the charge instead?

As long as we're clear

-Hyp.

Yes, that is it. It's like melding a Charge to the Full Attack, the single overlapping attack between the two is not duplicated. This would seem to be what they were likely getting at with the Pounce given Pounce's history back to 3.0 and the CR remaing the same between 3.0 and 3.5. I highly suspect that it was poorly wording that leads it to read as #3. Pounce got a boost anyway from only available on the first round of combat and requiring a leap to anytime that it chooses to Charge. More opportunities to be used and better mobility alone greatly improve the offensive power of the big cats and others with the ability.

Especially when coupled with the Haste and Cleave/Greater Cleave (Druids can still effect this sort of progression in animals in 3.5?). Even without that a cat can change a straight up CR encounter to a deadly senario quickly with a PC down in the first round. Afterall a predator's instinct is to first attack what appears to be the small, weak, lagard of the herd. If that doesn't scream mage at the back or attacking the soft, chewy bits of the party from the side I don't know what does.

With Haste and Cleave/Greater Cleave (adjusting for the likely shift in CR) I'm estimating that you could expect to often see nearly two PCs down within in the first round depending on Surprise/Init rolls.

 

[Shin Okada]

IMHO it is hard to say which interpretation is right by RAW.

MM P. 313

Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a fullattack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

Some people read this sentence as ""makes a full attack after a charge". Yet others could read it as "the charge is followed by a full attack instead of normal single attack".

As it could be read in two-ways, it is hard to say which is RAW.

Also, description of Pounce ability is worded differently in many places. For example, in MM P.64 Dire Lion Entry,

Pounce (Ex): If a dire lion charges, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

So all a DM can do is to guess the intention of the designer. And I think 1 makes the most sense (by the way, it is solved so in DDM). But this is just my way of interpretation.

 

[sullivan]

IMHO it is hard to say which interpretation is right by RAW.

Some people read this sentence as ""makes a full attack after a charge". Yet others could read it as "the charge is followed by a full attack instead of normal single attack".

Unfortunately in 3.5 the single attack is part of the Charge action, so there is no way outside assuming error that that it leads to anything other than #3 or #4. However that Dire Lion entry definately could go either way. You'd have to may the assumption though that the general Pounce entry has unintentionally misleading grammer. A mistake that was missed by the writers, editors, and proofers? Hmmm, could it really happen?

So all a DM can do is to guess the intention of the designer. And I think 1 makes the most sense (by the way, it is solved so in DDM). But this is just my way of interpretation.

To me that doesn't make sense in that Charge seems to suggest just the next attack get's the bonus. Otherwise what Hypersmurf said about Rhinos and stuff, plus what about AoO you get after the charge and before your next turn? They get the +2 as well? Hmmm.

P.S. What's the DDM? I'm not familiar with that acronym, and it's not coming to me right now. The brain apparently isn't firing on all the obscure cyclinders, it took me a couple of hours to get the "massive sub duel" joke.

 

[Shin Okada]

To me that doesn't make sense in that Charge seems to suggest just the next attack get's the bonus. Otherwise what Hypersmurf said about Rhinos and stuff, plus what about AoO you get after the charge and before your next turn? They get the +2 as well? Hmmm.

It could make sense if a full-attack is a substitution for the single melee attack part of the charge action.

P.S. What's the DDM? I'm not familiar with that acronym, and it's not coming to me right now. The brain apparently isn't firing on all the obscure cyclinders, it took me a couple of hours to get the "massive sub duel" joke.

D&D Miniatures. Though some abilities are differently handled in D&D and D&D Miniatures, I assume WotC guys are thinking the Pounce ability as so. It is hardly be an evidence, though.

 

[Ceska]

1.Full attack, all at +2

I vote for this one, simply by the fact, that I reread the Lions Pounce in CD, which clearly states, that the single attack from the charge is replaced by a full attack. Yes, I know its not the same, but I think the Pounce ability ist more powerful than the Lions Pounce and imho it should not gain a greater advantage.

YMMV as usual.

 

[Pickaxe]

I have a question about pounce and rake, for a leopard, for instance. It says you get a full attack, including rake. Does that mean you automatically get claw/claw/bite/rake/rake, or do you need to bite and improved grab to rake?

Furthermore, if we assume option 3 of the first post, is this possible?:

1. Charge, bite +2.
2. Improved grab, 2 rakes (+2?)
3. Full attack: claw/claw/bite/rake/rake
4. If bite hits, improved grab and two more rakes

In other words, 10 attacks in one round?!

--Axe

 

[sullivan]

Automatic rake? Nah. However yes, #3 suggests a possible 10 attacks. #4 is just plain silly at 10 possible attacks at +2. Haste him and it's 13. Greater Cleave and you start envisioning the Tasmanian Devil from Looney Tunes.

EDIT: Oops, disregard the above. No Rakes on the same turn as the pounce. That comes the following round, assuming the target isn't already dead.

...A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

 

[dcollins]

This is another 3.5 update issue. In 3.0 the Pounce ability read as follows:

From 3.0 SRD:

Pounce (Ex): If a dire lion leaps upon a foe during the first round of combat, it can make a full attack even if it has already taken a move action.

Which is completely straightforward that the creature gets one full attack action (in a place it would normally only get a standard attack action). When 3.5 attempted to update this, with the action types changing, wrapping it into Charge-only, and with the Charge action type also changing, it got scrambled into poor wording.

I'm sure that the intent is the same as in 3.0, the ability causes a one-attack situation to become a full attack situation.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I have a question about pounce and rake, for a leopard, for instance. It says you get a full attack, including rake. Does that mean you automatically get claw/claw/bite/rake/rake, or do you need to bite and improved grab to rake?

Furthermore, if we assume option 3 of the first post, is this possible?:

1. Charge, bite +2.
2. Improved grab, 2 rakes (+2?)
3. Full attack: claw/claw/bite/rake/rake
4. If bite hits, improved grab and two more rakes

In other words, 10 attacks in one round?!

--Axe

No. Even if you assume Option 3 (I wouldn't), you don't get the rake attacks from the grab until the *next round.* That's stated in the Rake description at the end of the MM. It's confusing because it says a creature cannot initiate a grapple and rake in the same round, but I believe that is meant to apply solely to the grapple application of rakes and not the pounce application (in which the rakes and the grab are independent).

So, you would lose the four attacks in #2 and #4, making 6 attacks in one round. If you rule that the full attack replaces the single attack that is part of a charge, you have 5 attacks in the pounce round, followed by 3 attacks in the next round if a hold has not been established, or a grapple check for bite damage and 2 rake attacks if a hold has been established.