Power attack bonus x2 for 2 hand weps

[Li Shenron]

Where did you read about this change? It's the first time I hear it...

So, it seems I was probably dreaming when I thought I heard someone from WotC proudly say that one of the best fix with 3.5e would have been to get rid of things too good not to take, like the many spells they have revised. Power Attack was already THE most popular combat feat in my games, since getting a bonus to damage is very worth in exchange for an equal penalty to attack, and flexible enough to find the appropriate amount. Unless the AC bonus from shields are increasing as well, I suppose there is going to be a large increase to the number of 2-handed weapons wielders.

But of course, they could have become afraid to have made 2-weapon fighting too popular now that it requires only one feat.

If they thought 2-handed weapons were too unpopular (are they?), why not simply let the wielder use twice the Str bonus to damage?

Note also that the cheap Power Attack + True Strike combo now becomes double good.

 

[Bobbystopholes]

It makes total sense to me. How could a halfling fighter 5 power attack with a dagger and get +5 but a human barbarian 5 power attacking for +5 with a longspear do the same amount? Two hands versus one hand versus large weapon versus small weapon usually used to eat fruit and not much else

Good change. Reward the big guys that deal the damage.

 

[Jhamin]

Sidestepping a piece of falling sky..

Now it seems to me that the thing is you have to take this in context.

In 3.5:
1) Stat buffing items are more expensive and therefore more rare.
2) Stat buffing spells now last much less time
3) Monster AC is supposedly going way up
4) Damage resistance will be harder to beat on most enemies

This all combines to mean that the amount of damage melee types are used to doing now is probably going to change.

and lets not forget about:
5) We don't know if anything has been given to light weapon users (maybe nothing has, but we don't know that)

I will wait to house rule it until I actually see what the full set of new rules looks like.

 

[Sejs]

I'm not a big fan of the Power Attack change, particularly the bit where you can't PA with light weapons. Was that really a problem, before? I can understand saying 'you cannot power attack with a weapon that you are currently using the Weapon Finesse feat with' - but not just no pa with any light weapons at any time.

Also thinking of scaling the -1/+2 tradeoff for 2h weapons to -2/+3 so it would be more in line with the bonus you normally get from strength for using a 2h weapon.


But *shrug* we'll play it by ear, and wait for the books to go live first. Heh.

 

[Rugger]

It makes total sense to me. How could a halfling fighter 5 power attack with a dagger and get +5 but a human barbarian 5 power attacking for +5 with a longspear do the same amount? Two hands versus one hand versus large weapon versus small weapon usually used to eat fruit and not much else

Good change. Reward the big guys that deal the damage.

<takes it on the chin>

Okay...now yer asking for it Bobby!

-Rugger
"I Lurk!"

 

[Grog]

They may not be equal, but I'd say they're close enough that both options remain viable choices.

Unless they've done more substantial changes than you listed in your post, TWF is still going to seriously suck compared to two handed style (unless you have sneak attack). The two-weapon fighter has to spend 3 feats on his fighting style; the two-hander doesn't have to spend any. The two-weapon fighter gets a -2 penalty to hit. And last but definitely not least, the two-weapon fighter has to pay for two magical weapons, not just one, costing him a potentially huge amount of money that he could have used for other magic items.

Oh, and with the 3.5 DR rules, two-weapon fighters are even more hosed. Unless a player happens to have a green cheese weapon or whatever is needed to penetrate the DR of the monster they're fighting, they're going to be losing 5 or 10 or 15 points off each hit. A two-weapon fighter is going to have a much harder time doing enough damage per hit to get through the DR and still have an impact on the enemy than a two-handed fighter will. So actually, I'd say two-weapon fighters are worse off in 3.5E, not better.

 

[diaglo]

1) Falchion is looking better now, double damage from power attack doubled again from regular crits will be a hefty increase.
Keen greataxe with improved critical will be a donnie brasco "forget about it" when it comes to crits,(imagine an greataxe wielding Paladin smiting evil, power attacking, and criticaling from the back of his mount,(or even a lance 2 handed) ouch bring out the bactine.

i could be wrong. but aren't the doubling rules different than this?

you never double a double. you add another.

so instead of x2x2= x4; it is x2x2= x3.

or x3x3= x9 or even x6; it is x3x3= x5

 

[Tar-Edhel]

Oh, and with the 3.5 DR rules, two-weapon fighters are even more hosed. Unless a player happens to have a green cheese weapon or whatever is needed to penetrate the DR of the monster they're fighting, they're going to be losing 5 or 10 or 15 points off each hit. A two-weapon fighter is going to have a much harder time doing enough damage per hit to get through the DR and still have an impact on the enemy than a two-handed fighter will. So actually, I'd say two-weapon fighters are worse off in 3.5E, not better.

But 2WF double their chance of having the right material to beat DR.

I'm not sure about this change. PA seemed perfect the way it was. But I've been playing DnD since day 1 (ok, maybe not day 1 but since the red box) and with each edition , the game gets better. 3rd edition, while not perfect, was the best of them all and I expect 3.5 to be even better in terms of balance an clarity.

So I'll wait for the books before whinning.

Power-lunging barbarian with greataxe, great sword or falchion will be death machines though...

 

[dcollins]

Not liking it here.
(a) Power Attack was already the best melee feat in my analysis. Incredibly flexible, incredibly useful. Just last week another player in my 3rd Ed. campaign asked which of several feats he should take next, and thanked me profusely after he saw Power Attack in action.
(b) They're also making it a heck of a lot more complicated... x1 in this case, x2 in another case, but nothing if this size versus that size doesn't stack up, unless you're using this weapon this way and not that way. Ugh.

 

[satori01]

Re: Re: Power attack bonus x2 for 2 hand weps

i could be wrong. but aren't the doubling rules different than this?

you never double a double. you add another.

so instead of x2x2= x4; it is x2x2= x3.

or x3x3= x9 or even x6; it is x3x3= x5

I had thought that at first but dont think that rule would apply here. a 7 point power attack =14 points of extra damage from a two handed weapon which would be affected normally. Of course there is no clarification in the feat, I thought rules clarification was the reason de etre of 3.5.

A couple of thoughts:

1) People are still going to be str buffed, the effect is still quite good even at 1 minute a level, and big battle buffing will still come into play. What changes is the certainty of always being buffed, all the time, day or night.

2)Didnt Piratecat retract that statement of stat buff items being more expensive, Piratecats statement was meant to refer to skill boosting items.

3)When I read the blurb about light weapons and powerattacking I was interpretting the blurb to be refering to two handed use only. Ie using a dagger two handed will not result in doubled damage, but still yield the same to hit penality.
To completely abolish power attack for small weapons is idiotic in my opinion if all things remain equal.

The halfling knife fighter would be doomed if small weapons can not be used to power attack, power attack is what brought up the damage average for the halfling knife fighter,(from my experience a halfling knife fighter will almost always use at least a 2 point power attack, +1 from size, +1 from weapon focus, more if weapon finesse is selected).

4) Does anyone have any statistical data revelaing the woefull nature of power attack in general? I know some people claimed that at higher levels the reduction of your to hit bonus resulted overall in less damage as your extra attacks became more likely to miss. Again from my experience this has not been the case, though my players admitedly use power attack only when it does not cut into their BAB.

5) The designers of 3.5 clearly felt this was a wrong that needed addressing, perhaps the designers wanted Power Attack to be a feat that was used continually by two handed weapon wielders, ala two weapon fighting.