Power Attack, Coup de Grâce, and the Sage's answer

[Trainz]

Power Attack, Coup de Grâce, and the Sage's answer

I have e-mailed Skip Williams with the following question, a topic that has been unsolved and going back and forth for months:

Can you Power Attack on a Coup de Grace? I'm asking this because you don't need to roll the dice for a Coup de Grace, so if you can indeed power attack, how do you determine how much you add ?

His reply:

Technically, the power attack feat gives you a bonus on melee attack damage and a coup de grace isn't really a melee attack (though you usually use a melee weapon to make a coup); it's a special action like a bull rush or overrun.

Frankly, I've never had a player try to Power Attack during a coup, but I suspect I'd just let it happen (you took the feat, so you get the benefit). In that case, the attacker gets an extra damage bonus as normal from the feat (and don't forget the extra damage from the automatic critical hit than occurs with a coup de grace).

Effectively, that means if you have the feat you'd always use a maxed out power attack; there is a slight downside to doing so, because your power attack bonuses and penalties apply until your next turn, and could affect attacks of opportunity you make between the time you make the coup and your next turn. Note that when you perform a coup, or any other full-round action, the action is resolves during your turn in the initiative order--it does not slop over into the next round as a spell with a full-round casting time does.

Even so, there isn't much downside to Power Attacking during a coup and allow it would make people with the Power Attack feat really great and delivering coups de grace. That doesn't bother me much because coups don't up so often. If it bothers you, either don't allow Power Attack during a coup or come up with a house rule that makes using Power Attack a little more chancy. One way would be to force the character to roll to confirmation roll, just as though rolling to confirm a critical hit. (As noted earlier a crit is automatic in a normal coup.)

Use the victim's flat-footed AC and subtract 5 points more for being helpless. The character making the "Power coup" still hits automatically, but doesn't deal any extra damage (from the crit or from the Power Attack feat) unless he/she confirms the coup.

Other approaches could work here.

Of course I asked his premission to post his reply here, to which he replied:

Sure, just note that this is an off-the-cuff response and ask people to copy any comments they post to the thread to my e-mail address

here. I'll consider including this question in a future column (and therefore the D&D FAQ) after seeing what the fans have to say.

So please e-mail any post you make in here to mailto:TSRsage@aol.com

 

[Deset Gled]

Technically, the power attack feat gives you a bonus on melee attack damage and a coup de grace isn't really a melee attack (though you usually use a melee weapon to make a coup); it's a special action like a bull rush or overrun.

I have to admit, that was an interpretation that never crossed my mind.

Even if the interpretation that a CDG isn't a melee attack is accurate (I want to research that one a bit more), I don't think his arguement holds. You don't have to make a melee attack to use Power Attack. You just "add [a] number to all melee damage rolls." If you use a melee weapon to perform a CDG, you would still have to roll melee damage to determine how much you hurt them even if CDG isn't a melee attack.

 

[RigaMortus]

So I wonder, can you PA on a Bull Rush or an overrun? Not that you would want to, but CAN you? What about a Charge?

What about a Sunder? Disarm? Trip?

If I have Improved Trip, do I have to declare my PA before I even attempt to the Trip or can I wait to see if my Trip succeeds, then PA on the "free attack"?

If I have iterative attacks (say +11/+6/+1) can I PA at any point in those attacks? Like let's say I know I will most like hit my enemy with the +11, but I am not so sure I'll hit him with my +1. So I make my attack rolls as such, +11/+6 then I PA with a -11 to hit on my last iterative attack. Can you do this, or do you have to PA from the first attack?

 

[Trainz]

I have to admit, that was an interpretation that never crossed my mind.

Even if the interpretation that a CDG isn't a melee attack is accurate (I want to research that one a bit more), I don't think his arguement holds. You don't have to make a melee attack to use Power Attack. You just "add [a] number to all melee damage rolls." If you use a melee weapon to perform a CDG, you would still have to roll melee damage to determine how much you hurt them even if CDG isn't a melee attack.

Well, he DID provide an alternative: "Effectively, that means if you have the feat you'd always use a maxed out power attack".

That's pretty simple.

 

[UltimaGabe]

So I wonder, can you PA on a Bull Rush or an overrun? Not that you would want to, but CAN you? What about a Charge?

What about a Sunder? Disarm? Trip?

If I have Improved Trip, do I have to declare my PA before I even attempt to the Trip or can I wait to see if my Trip succeeds, then PA on the "free attack"?

If I have iterative attacks (say +11/+6/+1) can I PA at any point in those attacks? Like let's say I know I will most like hit my enemy with the +11, but I am not so sure I'll hit him with my +1. So I make my attack rolls as such, +11/+6 then I PA with a -11 to hit on my last iterative attack. Can you do this, or do you have to PA from the first attack?

By the rules, you definitely have to declare a Power Attack at the beginning of your turn, and it applies until your next turn. I understand the game mechanic reason for this, as everyone would take a big penalty on their first attack and then try to get rid of it for their lower bonuses- and I can sorta understand the in-game reason, as it'd be difficult to stop yourself from reeling with the extra force behind your swing. But I'm not sure how the rules would handle declaring power attack AFTER you initial attack- but, just to be safe, I'd say you can't do it. Not by the rules, anyway.

 

[Staffan]

I have no problem whatsoever with power attack helping on a CdG. CdGs are supposed to be lethal.

Oh, and could you please not mess with colors? White text shows up really bad on the white background in the d20Modern skin.

 

[AGGEMAM]

So I wonder, can you PA on a Bull Rush or an overrun? Not that you would want to, but CAN you? What about a Charge?

What about a Sunder? Disarm? Trip?

If I have Improved Trip, do I have to declare my PA before I even attempt to the Trip or can I wait to see if my Trip succeeds, then PA on the "free attack"?

If I have iterative attacks (say +11/+6/+1) can I PA at any point in those attacks? Like let's say I know I will most like hit my enemy with the +11, but I am not so sure I'll hit him with my +1. So I make my attack rolls as such, +11/+6 then I PA with a -11 to hit on my last iterative attack. Can you do this, or do you have to PA from the first attack?

Last thing first. I think this quote answers your last two question regarding the trip and iterative attack.

Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls.

As for the others, look for the word 'melee attack' and you have your answer. So in short you can use PA on Sunder, Disarm, Trip, Grapple and a Charge but not on Overrun and Bull Rush.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So in short you can use PA on Sunder, Disarm, Trip, Grapple and a Charge but not on Overrun and Bull Rush.

I'd disagree... although depending on how you mean "use", I might not actually be disagreeing at all.

Before making attack rolls for a round, I decide to assign a PA number of 6. Then I use a move action to move 30 feet, and a standard action to cast Bless.

I am using Power Attack... even though I haven't made any melee attack or melee damage rolls.

(This is unlike, say, Combat Expertise, whereby you can only use the feat while taking the Attack or Full Attack action.)

Likewise, I can use Power Attack on an Overrun... but since there are no melee attack or melee damage rolls involved, the effect is identical to if I hadn't used Power Attack.

-Hyp.

 

[AGGEMAM]

I'd disagree... although depending on how you mean "use", I might not actually be disagreeing at all.

Before making attack rolls for a round, I decide to assign a PA number of 6. Then I use a move action to move 30 feet, and a standard action to cast Bless.

I am using Power Attack... even though I haven't made any melee attack or melee damage rolls.

That is exactly my take on PA, read one of my first reply to the lastest discussion about it to confirm it if you will.

Yes, you can always 'use' PA, only it doesn't do you any good if there isn't a melee damage roll, and nor do you get any penalties if there is no melee attack roll.

In the other thread I also said that it was entirely possible to use PA in a round where you didn't make a melee attack or melee damage roll, in the anticipation of an AoO coming your way, or as part of a ready action*.

So when I said 'use' I meant 'do you any good for that particular action'.

*ie I did not actually state the part about the ready action but that would seem to be clear from the other part of the reply.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I really don't see what the big deal is. Rogues can already add their sneak attack to the CDG which makes the fort save near impossible.

The number of times that someone with power attack is in a position to CDG must be pretty few, probably about the same frequency as a rogue.

Then I think of the executioner at the headsmans block. He has a *3 critical axe and maximizes his power attack. Few people survive a beheading, although I remember some English princess needing a few chops, and allowing PA supports that picture.