Power Attack too useful? When is it NOT taken?

[Elder-Basilisk]

That's a very good point. In 3.0, forgetting about AC and just figuring that the monsters would hit you anyway was a very viable tactic. In 3.5, you have to pay attention to defense because monsters and NPCs can dish out a lot more damage using power attack.

My own take on this is that Power Attack is a good feat, but not a broken one. I've a number of characters with it:

Pal 11 in a home game. I used it a lot at lower levels when I used a two handed weapon and faced mostly foes with weak ACs. At 11th level, I get a lot more milage out of extra smiting and actually avoid power attacking for the most part. (I'm using a one-handed weapon now is part of the deal, but I could use it two handed and power attack--I just don't). Now, it's primarily a prereq for Divine Might.

Ftr/Wiz 16 in Living Greyhawk. I use Power Attack on nearly every attack--usually for full. But I'm also usually using Arcane Strike (4th, 6th, or 7th level spells) and Wraithstrike on the attacks so hitting is pretty easy (except for the phenomenal number of ones I manage to roll).

Fighter/PsyWar mutt in Living Arcanis. I often power attack for a few points, but don't do a ton of power attacking. Enemies tend to have decent ACs.

Ftr/Monk/Paladin mutt in Living Greyhawk. I very rarely power attack. But she's a halfling with +0 BAB levels wielding a one-handed weapon, so it's about the least favorable situation for it. I have Power Attack in order to get Divine Might.

On the whole, I think I get as much use out of Power Attack as Divine Might or Arcane Strike--not more. It's good--essential to some builds, but it's not that useful for a number of melee characters.

The logic that something is broken if everyone takes it is wrong anyway. Weapon Focus and Imp Crit aren't broken because most fighters take them nor is Augment Summoning broken because most summoners take it. Those are abilities that characters are supposed to have and making them feats represents a focus in that particular area that carries an opportunity cost in other areas. I think of Power Attack in the same way. It's something that most offensively focussed, two handed weapon fighters (or those who want to be able to fill that role) will have. For others, it's often an opportunity cost paid to get Elusive Target or Quicken Spell.

As alluded to a few posts ago, Power Attack forces PC melee fighters to have a decent AC. Melee fighers must put significant resources into personal protection, rather than just all offense. Otherwise you run into the problem of high level characters all running around with AC 15, since many monsters hit most of the time anyway.

For example, a fighter with an AC of 15 facing PA'ing giants with attack bonuses of +25 is in a world of hurt, but the same fighter with an AC of 25 or so will take significantly less damage, since the Giants can't afford to hit him as hard.

Weakening PA would effectively weaken the benefits of AC in general, especially in the mid-high levels.

 

[Testament]

How is 36 damage "horrifying?" Our completely combat-unoptimized artificer often deals 22 damage or so per hit at level 1. What level are your players?

Read it again, his minimum damage is 50, 36 is the bonus he gets from the power attack at level 12, courtesy of leap attack.

And how the spork is an artificer doing 22 damage with an infusion? I'm looking at the list right now and not seeing it!

 

[monboesen]

Actually I think that hitting hard at the cost of being less precise and being hard to hit by not really committing yourself to attack are both very basic combat maneuvers that most people with little training will naturally be able to do. Thats my own experience at least.

Thus in my next campaign I'm pondering to let Power attack and Combat expertise be freebies for everyone.

 

[Abraxas]

Graargh!

I'm 6th level at the moment. My rules for Power Attack:

1. If it's tough to hit, don't Power Attack.
2. If it's not tough to hit, Power Attack for 3.
3. If I'm Raging, forget rules 1 and 2. FPAATT!

-Hyp.

The Dragon Disciple in my game does it slightly different . . .

1. FPAATT, unless otherwise noted.
2. If its really tough to hit - see rule 1.
3. If its moderately tough to hit, but not laughably easy, no power attack.

Of course the player took an extremely convoluted route to get to dragon disciple so even at 8th level he only has a +4 BAB. He doesn't hit often, but when he does, and has got all his mojo working, he does 2d4 + 27 (4d4 +54 on a crit).

 

[S'mon]

I think it says that you have an unusual campaign where ACs are too low.

"Too low" for what? It's a low-magic swords & sorcery world, a bit less wealth than standard (at 5th level I had 3600 gp for gear, spent most of it on +1 greatsword) and the desert area (Arypt = Egypt) doesn't have much heavy armour. Obviously low ACs make PA more powerful. In the fight before the desert zombies we faced 3 Zeereshi (giant carnivorous lizards); I think again my PC killed all 3 of them, charging on horseback (+2 charge, +1 vs unmounted/lower) I could full-PA and still have a good to-hit bonus (only 2 under my standard attack bonus) and do 2d6+17. My PC has STR 16 BTW, not very high for a Fighter. He has a level of Ranger which is one reason to keep his armour check penalty down.

 

[S'mon]

The difference is, that while PA auto-corrects itself with a lower to hit chance

I think there is definitely a potential problem at high levels when you combine PA with eg True Strike, or otherwise ensure that the attack will always hit. Leaving aside tunneling through walls (the only sensible solution there IMO is to ignore the RAW and use common sense re what's possible) the problem isn't too severe - personally I don't mind the PCs taking out the BBEG in one hit - but I can see a very good case for capping 3.5e PA at 10 pts, ie -10/+20 for 2-handed weapon. 3.5's doubling of 2h PA and its reduction in monster DR makes this more reasonable. The Epic DR feat could be limited to 3 times (DR +9).

 

[S'mon]

By 5th level, the front-line fighters in both of my groups were getting taken down on a regular basis. I'm not sure what your DM is thinking, but being able to put down your 5th level Ftr/Bbn is a piece of cake at that EL (and AC!).

Well it's not a hard-Gamist dungeon-hack, we're playing the 2e Ravenloft scenario "A Touch of Death*" converted to 3e. Anything that could put down my Ftr-4/Rgr-1 easily would even more easily slaughter the other PCs, who are a chainshirt-wearing (like I said, it's a desert) Cleric, a Monk, a Psychic Warrior, and a couple of utility-PC Rogue types - I think one is a Ranger-Rogue.

*I was glad I'd taken Iron Will when the Mummy appeared and I rolled the exact Will save DC...

 

[S'mon]

Yep, against a barely double digit AC that works well, but against decently armored opponents you'll need more than +7 to hit.

Going by the RAW, a typical EL 5 encounter for a 5th level party would be 3 2nd level NPCs - who will have ACs in the teens. A single 5th level NPC may have AC 20+, but when Charging it'd still be worth my while to PA him and hope the group can put him down in 1 round. I think a lot of GMs run games where encounters average more like EL +2 or +3 to party level*, in that kind of (non-RAW) campaign my PC would need much better AC and PA would be less useful. IME such games tend to kill off Rogues real quick and favour Clerics and Wizards.

*I know I do.

 

[S'mon]

Yep, against a barely double digit AC that works well, but against decently armored opponents you'll need more than +7 to hit.

Mounted charge + PA I'm +8* to hit, 2d6+17 damage. That will hit most appropriate-CR opponents more than half the time.

*BAB +5 STR +3 Wpn Focus +1 +1-weapon +1 = +10, -5 PA, +2 Charge, +1 vs lower elevation = +8. Damage 2d6 +4 (STR) +2 (Spec) +1 (magic) = +7, +10 PA = +17.

 

[S'mon]

I suspect the DM is hesitant to TPK, and is therefore playing soft.

Heh. As far as I can tell our major combat encounters have been Encounter Level-appropriate for a 5th level party - 3 CR 2 giant lizards (see their stats at http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=129179), later on 12 desert zombies CR 1/2 or 1 (they seemed like regular zombies but much faster), backed up by a Mummy whose 'fear' effect sent both our PC & NPC Clerics running in terror into the night. Obviously the GM could TPK us if she wanted by sending EL+4 or higher encounters at us, that isn't really the point. Any GM can do that. My point is that at EL= Party Level, 2h Power Attack is *extremely* powerful at this level. But so are Fireballs.