Power Level of Characters Will Decline

[Imp]

3e characters are all more-or-less glass cannons, capable of great powers but, at any level, also capable of going down in flames and meaty chunks in seconds if something goes wrong... it sounds as if 4e is trying to achieve the 1e/2e "sweet spot", where most characters don't win the battle in one action, but neither do they ordinarily drop* quickly and it takes a number of fights to wear them down. But it's hard to say one is more or less powerful than the other.

I'll be pretty happy if that's what happens.

*yeah yeah save vs. poison, magic-user casts fireball, it is a bit more complicated than all that, but generally.

 

[A'koss]

4e is in a lot of ways a vindication for me because I've been talking about compressing the disparities (BAB, Saves, AC, HP) between the classes, single Attack bonuses, wizards with more "attack roll" spells, class-based AC bonuses, stronger low level characters, removing/toning down campaign-damaging magic since we were having these discussions here way back in '03. I even said way back when you could literally have everyone have the same BAB, Save and HP progression and the stat differences, feats and magic would naturally produce all the meaningful differences you'd need at higher levels.

Of course 4e's way with a static class-based bonus at 1st level helps create those meaningful differences right at the start, however I'm interested in seeing how they keep the numbers in check at high Paragon & Epic Levels. Really, anything significantly more than a 10 point spread between equal level characters (Attack bonuses, Saves, Skills, AC) and things can quickly go awry. Another good rule to adopt to help keep the reigns on it is to take a page out of the Conan RPG and have stats naturally increase at a rate of 1 point for every stat / X levels. That will keep the relative the differences between the characters the same (barring magic) throughout their careers, which will important at very high levels...

Now I'm just waiting to see if my next prediction will come true - Spell Resistance will no longer be an "all or nothing" solution to magic (perhaps just a bonus to your Save Defenses vs magic).

 

[Jack99]

We do have an indirect answer - it was said that levels 1-30 in 4e will correspond to levels (IIRC) 4-15 in 3e. So low level characters will be more powerful than their 3e brothers but high-levels characters will be somewhat weaker.

No real MMORPG with any self-respect tones down the power-creep! Could it be! Perhaps 4e isn't turning our favorite game into a video-game.. Oh dear, so many people proven wrong

 

[Hussar]

...the talk earlier of "the destiny of Paragon and Epic characters" and the earlier talk of different action points ("These aren't your father's action points") make me think they are adapting Star Wars Destiny mechanics to 4th edition.

This sounds interesting. Could you explain more? I don't play SW Saga and haven't seen the rules. I noticed that bit on Destiny in the news and this intrigues me.

 

[Darrin Drader]

A decrease in power level is the major design philosophy shift of the new edition that I actually agree with.

 

[Lurker37]

Surely the only real measure of 'power' is "how many level X characters will it take to kill a <insert iconic monster here> ?"

i.e. It is my opinion that power level is only relative to the things you are pitted against in game. If the characters' stats are toned down, but the monsters' stats are also toned down so that it's just as hard a fight as before, but no harder, then I regard the end result to be that the power level is unchanged.

So, my question is, are the iconic, 'one of these vs a party' monsters now easier for appropriate-level characters to kill, harder, or about the same? And I don't think we're even close to an answer on that yet.

 

[Frostmarrow]

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[Li Shenron]

I don't think it is simple as "less powerful" or "more powerful". My suspicion is that 4e characters will be tactically "more powerful" and strategically "less powerful".

That is, at will and per encounter powers will grant PCs greater endurance in the size and numbers of encounters they can handle. I think the removal of some high-end magic, and probable restriction of other problematic magic, will reduce the strategic power of PCs to go anywhere and do anything. The developers have said that there will be a more gradual growth of power with increasing level.

Yes, the question about power is complex, a direct comparison between 2 systems is not possible, but it may be possible to directly compare specific issues such as: at which level the PC can obtain the ability to magically fly/teleport/planeshift/polymorph/scry etc...

Another issue is how MANY different powers will the character have? Personally I think that some 3e classes had too many (will 4e end the insanity that clerics and druids know ALL their spells?). That doesn't increase the power of a character on a given day, but makes the game more complicated to play. I hope that 4e increases the "power array" of non-spellcasters, and reduces the one of divine spellcasters.

 

[Roman]

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Huh?

Is that meant to be the progression for variables such as BAB? If so, I think it is wrong and they will advance at +1 every two levels.

 

[delericho]

The way character advancement works now, it takes fewer encounters to gain a level, but it takes roughly the same length of time to reach 30 levels in 4th Edition as it takes to reach 20 levels in 3rd Edition. The rate of level advancement is still being playtested, however, so the jury's still out on whether the final game will work this way.

One of the goals of 4th Edition is to make high-level play as fun, balanced, and manageable as low-level play, and to make high-level characters as easy to create and run as low-level ones. Comparing high-level 4th Edition characters to high-level 3rd Edition characters is not an apples-to-apples comparison because they're built very differently. However, there isn't a startling increase in overall power level from a 20th-level 3rd Edition character to a 20th-level 4th Edition character

That strongly suggests both that there is an increase, rather than decline, in character power levels, and also that the rate at which that power is gained is increased as well.