Power Level of Characters Will Decline

[Frostmarrow]

Huh?

Is that meant to be the progression for variables such as BAB? If so, I think it is wrong and they will advance at +1 every two levels.

It's just a suggestion. With this progression several issues are resolved.

* Instant sweet spot.

* Bonuses and penalties can be accomodated.

* Every bonus has a name (apart from the +5/10/15 every bonus comes from a talent or a feat).

* All heroic characters (regardless of level) can play any heroic scenario. Higher level dudes will have more options, though.

* Easy math. It's not too easy as developers will complexify things to the brink of human capacity anyway, as per usual.

* Nothing they have said so far contradicts this progression. *I cast down the gauntlet*

 

[Roman]

It's just a suggestion. With this progression several issues are resolved.

OK, I assumed it was a progression, but it was just a string of numbers without an explanation, so I couldn't be sure.

* Instant sweet spot.

* Bonuses and penalties can be accomodated.

* Every bonus has a name (apart from the +5/10/15 every bonus comes from a talent or a feat).

* All heroic characters (regardless of level) can play any heroic scenario. Higher level dudes will have more options, though.

* Easy math. It's not too easy as developers will complexify things to the brink of human capacity anyway, as per usual.

* Nothing they have said so far contradicts this progression. *I cast down the gauntlet*

I think they have stated now (I think it was in some quote from the Races & Classes book) that the progressions will be +0.5 per level.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Ah! It's just something people assume. In fact, what they said was "a 10th level character will be at +5".

Look:

Unified progression of defense, BAB and saves. A 10th level character will have +5 of those (thus +0.5 / level). Even at 1st level classes can significantly alter the base value. Class abilities modify them further.

It says "thus +0.5 / level". But brackets indicate it's a note of kunadam's (the scooper).

It also says "Even at 1st level classes..." You don't think the base value at 1st level is 0, do you? It's got to be higher than 0 or otherwise they miss the sweet spot.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=212851

 

[Mercule]

We do have an indirect answer - it was said that levels 1-30 in 4e will correspond to levels (IIRC) 4-15 in 3e. So low level characters will be more powerful than their 3e brothers but high-levels characters will be somewhat weaker.

This has been directly refuted (sorry, no link). "Stretching out the sweet spot" refers to some refinements in the underlying math, not to the power level. I believe the claim is rough equivalence to 3E, with some shifting of specifics.

Based on the information I've seen, my expectation is that the die-hard caster fans will feel their favorites have been de-powered because some of the heavy-hitting (some might say "inappropriately leveled") spells have been moved or removed. Hopefully, this feeling will be mitigated by the fact that they will always have a few "at will" powers. Meanwhile, many fighter/rogue fans will feel that they've gotten a power boost because of the new martial power source and the corresponding "powers". The flip to that is that the mechanic may make the fighter fans feel like they're playing a caster -- but that's something I seriously doubt.

Really, the thing to compare isn't a 3E character to a 4E character. It's the monsters of the appropriate edition that a character can defeat. A 1E party of 8th level characters (or a single 8th level barbarian) could take out a respectable dragon. In 2E, the party would have to be a bit higher level and in 3E, they'd have to be in the upper teens, at minimum. So, you could say that characters were depowered over the editions -- but that mostly applies to fighters, since the spell lists weren't refactored.

I guess that's a rambling way of saying that there may net be a good way to evaluate the difference. Even if there is, it may depend very strongly on what your definition of "power" is.

 

[Deekin]

It says "thus +0.5 / level". But brackets indicate it's a note of kunadam's (the scooper).

It also says "Even at 1st level classes..." You don't think the base value at 1st level is 0, do you? It's got to be higher than 0 or otherwise they miss the sweet spot.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=212851

Thus the Note that classes will modify it. Duh. A Fighter might get +3-5 Bab at first level, along with a bonus to his Fort defense.

 

[AllisterH]

Really, the thing to compare isn't a 3E character to a 4E character. It's the monsters of the appropriate edition that a character can defeat. A 1E party of 8th level characters (or a single 8th level barbarian) could take out a respectable dragon. In 2E, the party would have to be a bit higher level and in 3E, they'd have to be in the upper teens, at minimum. So, you could say that characters were depowered over the editions -- but that mostly applies to fighters, since the spell lists weren't refactored.

I guess that's a rambling way of saying that there may net be a good way to evaluate the difference. Even if there is, it may depend very strongly on what your definition of "power" is.

I think what a lot people envision when they say "power" is "how much dice do I roll" irrespective of the target.

Another good example would be giants. Even though a 3E fighter has more "stuff" (i.e feats) than a 1E fighter, he was actually weaker when faced with critters. For example, a 7th level IE FTR I'd give good odds to take down a Storm giant yet a _14th_ level FTR in 3E versus a Storm Giant, and I'm betting on the Giant.

Yet ask people, "whose more powerful?" and the most likely response is "The 3E FTR!".

 

[NewfieDave]

Here's some pure speculation based on what we've heard...

PC Power Increases:

Longevity - At will and per encounter abilities mean no more resting for 8 hours in the middle of a monster filled dungeon (my LEAST favorite thing about 3.X BY FAR)

Options - Classes who were previously without "special powers" in combat will now have more options available to them.

Tactics - With the emphasis on movement in combat, characters who use sound tactics will effectively be more powerful.


PC Power Decreases:

Game Breakers - Disruptive spells that can ruin a DM's whole adventure (ie. the Scry, Buff, Teleport technique) will be changed, removed, or only become available at high levels where such abilities are not as big of an advantage.

Save or Die - Is gone.


4e won't be a straightforward decline in power level for PCs; power levels will just be more balanced between classes and will be based on a math system that works at all levels rather than just a few. So if you're used to playing a fully optimized Cleric of Mystra, you should probably stick with 3.5 like the rest of the cheaters

 

[Lord Fyre]

Here's some pure speculation based on what we've heard...

PC Power Increases:

Longevity - At will and per encounter abilities mean no more resting for 8 hours in the middle of a monster filled dungeon (my LEAST favorite thing about 3.X BY FAR)

Options - Classes who were previously without "special powers" in combat will now have more options available to them.

Tactics - With the emphasis on movement in combat, characters who use sound tactics will effectively be more powerful.


PC Power Decreases:

Game Breakers - Disruptive spells that can ruin a DM's whole adventure (ie. the Scry, Buff, Teleport technique) will be changed, removed, or only become available at high levels where such abilities are not as big of an advantage.

Save or Die - Is gone.


4e won't be a straightforward decline in power level for PCs; power levels will just be more balanced between classes and will be based on a math system that works at all levels rather than just a few. So if you're used to playing a fully optimized Cleric of Mystra, you should probably stick with 3.5 like the rest of the cheaters

If these prove to be true, the WoTC will have - at least- spread the "sweet spot" to as wide of a range as possible.

I still doubt that 1 to 30 sweet spot claim, only because as a reality of game design there will always be a range where a game works best and is most fun to play. (Or at least I have never seen otherwise.)

 

[Lanefan]

I think what a lot people envision when they say "power" is "how much dice do I roll" irrespective of the target.

Another good example would be giants. Even though a 3E fighter has more "stuff" (i.e feats) than a 1E fighter, he was actually weaker when faced with critters. For example, a 7th level IE FTR I'd give good odds to take down a Storm giant yet a _14th_ level FTR in 3E versus a Storm Giant, and I'm betting on the Giant.

Yet ask people, "whose more powerful?" and the most likely response is "The 3E FTR!".

Absolutely. Put a 3e Fighter-7 up against a 1e Fighter-7 and the 3e's gonna win 9 times or more out of 10. Make 'em both Fighter-14s and the 3e wins every time.

Power and numbers creep have affected PCs, as noted. Your example shows they have had a much greater relative effect on monsters, which is also true. The question is, do the 4e designers have the gumption to reel both back in? So far, it doesn't look like it. (a good measuring stick here is to look at how often the '+' on any roll is greater than the size of the die used to make that roll)

My somewhat bigger question, having read the class info presented on the news page, is this: will there still be a *simple* class with minimal-to-no options or choices, such as the 1e Fighter, that a new player can dive right in and play without getting buried in rules and that'll still have enough relative power to be viable in the party?

Lanefan

 

[mach1.9pants]

I don't think it is simple as "less powerful" or "more powerful". My suspicion is that 4e characters will be tactically "more powerful" and strategically "less powerful".

That is, at will and per encounter powers will grant PCs greater endurance in the size and numbers of encounters they can handle. I think the removal of some high-end magic, and probable restriction of other problematic magic, will reduce the strategic power of PCs to go anywhere and do anything. The developers have said that there will be a more gradual growth of power with increasing level.

That, Sir, is a good point and I really hope you are right!