Powerful Races and Beginning XP

[Prince Atom]

How much XP would you let a powerful-race character start with?

For example, a Faerunian drow has a Level Adjustment of +2, thus a 1st-level drow is ECL 3 and needs 6,000 XP to advance to the next level.

Would you let her start with 3,000 XP (the amount a human of the same level would have), or tell her to start with 0 XP right off the bat?

Basically, all the books say that powerful races advance in level slower than standard races -- but that's hardly logical if you consider that character's monster HD and level adjustment to be "levels" in their own right, which is the argument inherent in the phrase "Effective Character Level." Such a character is, say, a "2nd level" monster/ 1st level whatever, so to become effectively 4th level she needs no more and no less than a third-level human.

Argh, sorry, I thought this was going to be simple....

TWK

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Usually, they start with 0 xp, but you could give them 1000 less than they need to level up. So a drow would get 5000.

This means that they get their first level simultaneously, but after that the drow will fall behind (they need 4000 for the next level, while the others need only 2000.) Now this is good because you don't want to be 1st-level (with only one HD) when the others have 3DH instead. The DM might think the same, becaue he has to treat such a character like a raw egg (or he won't last for long, and that isn't something the dm wants)

You could also invent a monster class like they do in Savage Species, and give the Drow Powers not all at once, but later on.

Quick whip-up for drow:

Initial Benefits: The stuff elves get, except that they gain +2 int (cause of skill points), get the drow weapon proficiencies, and instead of low-light vision , they get darkvision 60' and also drow languages instead of elf languages. They also get light blindness. Their favoured class is either wizard or cleric.

1st level -> normal (I use "normal" here for "the usual stuff you get when you advance a level. On this level this means you get the benefits of a 1st-level character)
2nd level -> normal; + 2 dex, dancing lights 1/day
3rd level -> +2 cha, dark vision 120', other spell like abilities.
4th level -> normal
5th level -> spell resistance, +2 on all will saves against spells.

 

[Pax]

You're both (technically) incorrect.

A Drow Whatever(1) has an ECL of 3 ... and has 3,000XP to start with. Just like every OTHER ECL 3 character, like say, a Human WhicheverElse(3) has.

You start with the minimum XP needed to be a character of your net ECL. The table in the FRCS reflects this -- notice how ECL +0 races have "0 XP" listed for first level, ECL +1 races have "1,000 XP" listed for first level, and so on?

The best way, btw, to start a game where standard PHB races can achieve higher than 1st level, is to say (for example) "Everyone starts the game with 11,000XP and 9,000gp" (which comes, for PHB-race characters, to 5th level, an extra 1,000xp, and standard gp for that level). Or whatever values float YOUR boat, ofc.

If you start a level 3 game, and make the drow have 0XP to begin with ... you're putting that character 3,000XP behind the other party members. After everyone earns a 3,000XP increase, everyoen BUT the Drow will go up a level; the Drow, otoh, will only have earned what shoudl have been their starting experience points.

[EDIT]
I just realised, you two seem to be talking about allowing a +2 ECL race in a game with +0 ECL races, all of them at 1st level. In a word, don't do it. You'll throw off the Party Average Level, for one thing.

Every PC should start out with identical XP and GP. ECL cuts into that. If it's a 1st or 2d level start, then an ECL +2 race is simply not available.
[/EDIT]

 

[DMauricio]

I'd have to agree with Pax on this one.

I normally allow players to make characters with more "powerful" races. Provided that all of the characters made have equal ECLs. (so a 4th level party with 6000xp could be made of a 2nd level drow, a lizardfolk with no levels, and 2 4th level humans. etc...)

Mind you, I thought originally that the FRCS had a different method of awarding XP for mixed level parties, so playing a 1st level drow among other 1st level characters was possible. (though as I don't have my books on hand, I can't say if this is correct)




Dom

 

[Prince Atom]

KaeYoss -- I thought Savage Species recommended that monster-class levels be equal to the character's eventual Monster HD and Level Adjustment. By this rule, a Drow monster class would only have two levels in it -- and I don't think that's worth it. I'd tell the player he could have his drow when it can fit in, and to play something else now for two levels.

Pax -- perish the thought! No, I'm not going to let a drow start in a game with standard races, all at 1st level. Of course I'd allow a 1st-level drow in with a group of 3rd-level humans, but not before then.

DMauricio -- The FRCS does have an alternate XP system, whereby each person's award is calculated according to his level. Basically, calculate total XP as for a party of that character's level, then give him his share and ignore the rest; wash and repeat. However, with a drow this is ineffective because the DMG specifically states that characters of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd levels gain identical XP awards for CRs. A 1st- and a 3rd-level character would both get the same amount (a share of 300 XP) for a CR 1 critter. So the drow wouldn't suffer a reduced XP share.

OK, I guess this has been cleared up -- you have at least as much XP as your ECL requires. Cool beans.

TWK

 

[Dakhran the Dark]

The FRCS alternate XP system is now the 3.5 default, so if you have players that fall behind in the XP game (due to absences, deaths, or level loss), they can eventually catch up to the rest of the party.

I've been toying with the idea of having starting characters in a first-level game have the option of taking an ECL+1 character by spending the initial first feat, however so far it hasn't been tested for balance. However, with the new XP system, as long as the ECL isn't too far ahead, the party should catch up in a few levels...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

KaeYoss -- I thought Savage Species recommended that monster-class levels be equal to the character's eventual Monster HD and Level Adjustment.

Usually. But it's for monster races - races with racial hit dice.

My method is a variant, allowing you to play a drow from ECL 1 on without any significant advantages or disadvantages.

Pax -- perish the thought! No, I'm not going to let a drow start in a game with standard races, all at 1st level. Of course I'd allow a 1st-level drow in with a group of 3rd-level humans, but not before then.

I played a drow once - from the very beginning (with 0 xp). He didn't dominate the game at 1st level, and especially at 2nd and 3rd it was very hard with only a single hit die (he had 6 or 7 hp, I played a rogue). In the variant I posted above he won't start with all the abilities (and thus be stronger at 1st level), but nor will he have only half (or even a third) of the other's hit dice. All in all, it should work out better.

 

[Pax]

Pax -- perish the thought! No, I'm not going to let a drow start in a game with standard races, all at 1st level. Of course I'd allow a 1st-level drow in with a group of 3rd-level humans, but not before then.

Then don't short the Drow player any XP. Everyone in a campaign should, as a general rule, have identical XP totals at all times (barring losses due to death/raising, item creation, or possibly from missed sessions).

Oh, a word of advice, based on past prior experience on both sides of the GM screen: don't let anyone play a race with a LEvel Adjustment so high that more than half of their ECL is consumed by the LA. IOW, in a 3d level game, cap the ECL modifiers at +1 ...

The lack of HD can be a BIG drawback; I've seen the phenomenon described here on ENWorld as "eggshells with hammers".

Anecdote time: I ran a game, set at 3d level to begin with, and was willing to let in a half-dragon despite it being ECL 4; I decided I'd give it the same XP to start with, and just "fudge" the 1-ECL difference until everyone else caught up.

The character was a Blue half-dragon spiked-chain fighter; the player, upon realising how few hp she had compared to the others (even with racially augmented HD and Constitution), had to play very cautiously, and not only was not more powerful than the ordinary half-orc barbarian (for all his str and con were lower, and even his total AB was lower ... even when raging!). In fact, she was inclined to hang back with the spellcasters!

My personal rule is, therefor, as I state above: Level Adjustments shoul never account for more than HALF of your net ECL. Thus, I wouldn't again allow a half-dragon into a game starting at less than 6th level; no half-celestials at less than 8th level; and so on.

It makes the DM's job (challenging everyone without overpowering any one member) easier, and it makes the character more fun to play (KNOWING that the gnome bard is better in a toe-to-toe fight than your "ug-thud basic fighter" BECAUSE HE HAS MORE HITPOINTS can really suck the fun out of the first few levels). A clear win-win situation, IMO.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Oh, a word of advice, based on past prior experience on both sides of the GM screen: don't let anyone play a race with a LEvel

Good one. The missing HD will kill you otherwise.

Another possibility is the one I used: make a "monster class" out of it, where he'll get his powers over several levels, starting with a part of his abilities (no more than an ECL +0 Race should have). In between, he'll miss out an actual class level, and get some of the more powerful things instead (like the drow's SR). At some point (when his level adjust won't eat up half of his total levels or even more), he will get his final powers and be the same as any "standard" character of his race.

 

[Urbannen]

I vote for your solution, KaeYoss. I would suggest using the apprentice rules from the 3.0 DMG, too.

Drow class

Drow 1: +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, Darkvision 60', SR 10, +2 racial bonus on Will saves against magic, dancing lights & faerie fire 1x/day: caster level 1, proficient in hand crossbow, rapier, and short sword, 1/2 hp of base class, minimum 4 hp: d4 - 4 hp, d6 - 4 hp, d8 - 4 hp, d10 - 5 hp, d12 - 6 hp), Skills: (ranks of one level of base class + Int mod) x 2, light blindness.

Drow 2: +2 Cha, Darkvision 120', SR 11, darkness 1x/day: caster level 1, apprentice-level benefits of 1st level class, 3/4 hp of 1st level class, minimum 4 hp: d4 - 4, d6 - 4, d8 - 6, d10 - 7, d12 - 8, add skills: (ranks of one level of base class + Int mod)

Base class 1: Feat, SR 11 + class level, caster level of spell-like abilities = class level, full hp and class features of base class, add skills: ranks of one level of base class + Int mod.

This class progression should allow your drow to start at 1st or 2nd level and at least have some chance to survive and be cool, I hope.

Incidentally:
I just noticed that the 3.5 SRD lists drows' stat modifiers as +2 Int, +2 Cha only. Is that a typo, or did they drop the -2 Con, +2 Dex for 3.5? Hmm... the stats of the 1st level warrior they give show +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha. (Sigh. I know 3.5 was an extremely big and complex project from an editorial standpoint, but I sometimes wonder if they hire actual technical editor types or just competent friends of friends.)