Powergamer Issues

[enrious]

Enrious, I was talking about Sap Adept/Master in regards to needing flatfooted the entire time. I'm aware that regular sneak attack works in lots of other scenarios, but the OP is concerned about the "super damage" his fellow player's feat chain is giving him, so I was dissecting that, specifically.

Ah, I see. Yeah, Sap Adept'll work but without Sap Master, frankly meh.

As a DM I'd love to see a player try this build out because it means the party would not need to hire an NPC to hold their purses.

 

[Chronologist]

His initiative modifier is +12, so he pretty much automatically knocks out a powerful enemy at the beginning of combat. Knocked out = defeated, with the Coup de Grace rules, or just cutting him up enough.

And yes, he has god stats. Every character he makes gad god stats. I've never seen anything less than a 13 on his character sheets, and never less than two 18s. He decides on whatever stats he wants. I wouldn't mind if he was SAD, but because he's MAD, all those modifiers add up in a crazy way.

I'm fairly certain that being grappled means you are flat-footed to every other creature not in a grapple with you. If I'm wrong, then that's another rule manipulation he pulled. Either way, I'm fairly certain that he's finding ways of making opponents flat-footed to him on a regular basis, if not all of the time.

Oh, and his damage is 1d6+3 plus 3d6 sneak attack (item for +1 die of sneak attack), plus he adds another 9 to that, so he does 4d6+12, for an average of 26 damage. Higher than your fighter, I believe. In addition, he will deal far more damage at higher levels than the Fighter can do. Because of the increased die of damage, at level 11 he's doing 1d6+3 normal damage, and another 10d6+30 from the sneak attack. Oh, and I totally see him taking the feat that allows rerolling 1s on sneak attack damage dice, which again increases his average damage.

The difference between your fighter and his character is, I don't know, about 6 skill points per level, a ton of class skills, rogue talents, trapfinding, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and evasion. All the fighter gets is saves against fear, and a better to hit bonus. Out of combat, the rogue can do so much more than a fighter can.

When it comes to power, I think his rogue far surpasses other fighters. I'm not going to argue about it any more. Sure, if his attack only worked once, maybe it'd be fine. However, he has been able to pull of multiple strikes per fight, making him far more powerful.



Honestly, at this point I'm just unhappy that he decided to use Ultimate Combat, a book that the DM was not letting him access. It's just like in my game, I said no Book of Exalted Deed or Vile Darkness, and no fan-made content, and yet he played a character with both, refusing to change or admit he violated my rules.

If you were playing with him, I think you might see things differently, StreamOfTheSky.

 

[prosfilaes]

And yes, he has god stats. Every character he makes gad god stats. I've never seen anything less than a 13 on his character sheets, and never less than two 18s. He decides on whatever stats he wants.

How? Just by fiat?

Honestly, at this point I'm just unhappy that he decided to use Ultimate Combat, a book that the DM was not letting him access. It's just like in my game, I said no Book of Exalted Deed or Vile Darkness, and no fan-made content, and yet he played a character with both, refusing to change or admit he violated my rules.

It seems like how powerful he is is at best a sidepoint. The real issue is that he's not willing to follow the rules given him, especially if (and when) that bleeds into cheating at the table.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

It sounds like he's purposely misinterpretting a lot of rules and using stuff from 3E and possibly 3rd party. And I don't get how his stats are high unless all of yours are. Do you roll? Did you see his rolls?

And if you're really upset...I feel dirty for mentioning this because it's a stupid feat that should've never been written, but if you feel like dropping an atomic bomb...

EDIT: You know what? Scratch that. It doesn't even deserve to be spoken of, and it's wrong of anyone to ever recommend it for anything, ever.

 

[enrious]

His initiative modifier is +12, so he pretty much automatically knocks out a powerful enemy at the beginning of combat. Knocked out = defeated, with the Coup de Grace rules, or just cutting him up enough.

How? He gets one shot at doing it.

And yes, he has god stats. Every character he makes gad god stats. I've never seen anything less than a 13 on his character sheets, and never less than two 18s. He decides on whatever stats he wants. I wouldn't mind if he was SAD, but because he's MAD, all those modifiers add up in a crazy way.

That's between you, he, and however you guys do stats.

I'm fairly certain that being grappled means you are flat-footed to every other creature not in a grapple with you. If I'm wrong, then that's another rule manipulation he pulled. Either way, I'm fairly certain that he's finding ways of making opponents flat-footed to him on a regular basis, if not all of the time.

Being grappled lowers your AC but does not render you flatfooted. However, being pinned does.

Sounds like both of you need to brush up on grappling in Pathfinder, because some things have changed and you'll trip yourself if you go by 3.5 memory.

Oh, and his damage is 1d6+3 plus 3d6 sneak attack (item for +1 die of sneak attack), plus he adds another 9 to that, so he does 4d6+12, for an average of 26 damage. Higher than your fighter, I believe. In addition, he will deal far more damage at higher levels than the Fighter can do. Because of the increased die of damage, at level 11 he's doing 1d6+3 normal damage, and another 10d6+30 from the sneak attack. Oh, and I totally see him taking the feat that allows rerolling 1s on sneak attack damage dice, which again increases his average damage.

Only when flanking. Only when making one attack due to improved feint. Only on the first round of combat, assuming he wins initiative.

I'll echo what Stream said and ask that you let me know when he can do some real damage.

The difference between your fighter and his character is, I don't know, about 6 skill points per level, a ton of class skills, rogue talents, trapfinding, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and evasion. All the fighter gets is saves against fear, and a better to hit bonus. Out of combat, the rogue can do so much more than a fighter can.

When it comes to power, I think his rogue far surpasses other fighters. I'm not going to argue about it any more. Sure, if his attack only worked once, maybe it'd be fine. However, he has been able to pull of multiple strikes per fight, making him far more powerful.

*shrug* You're among the few people I've seen suggest that rogues are better than fighters in combat.

Someone at your table is doing it wrong if that's the case.

Not an attack or anything of the like, but a decent fighter should run circles around him, so it's a question of the fighter, the rogue/monk not doing things right, or the DM for letting things happen that shouldn't.

Honestly, at this point I'm just unhappy that he decided to use Ultimate Combat, a book that the DM was not letting him access. It's just like in my game, I said no Book of Exalted Deed or Vile Darkness, and no fan-made content, and yet he played a character with both, refusing to change or admit he violated my rules.

Y'know, as a DM, I sympathize. My players know that except for the magus, nothing from UM or UC is automatically allowed, because to be honest I don't think they're very well done and have a lot of issues currently.

That said, as a DM, I have to wonder if you told him no BoXD or BoVD and yet he still played them, then he has learned from you that the DMs restrictions are toothless and he can get away with whatever he wants if he whines enough.

Frankly, it doesn't sound like it's really a problem with him. It doesn't sound like it's a problem with you. It doesn't sound like it's a problem with the DM.

And yet, it'd take all three of you to fix it.

 

[Greg K]

Honestly, at this point I'm just unhappy that he decided to use Ultimate Combat, a book that the DM was not letting him access. It's just like in my game, I said no Book of Exalted Deed or Vile Darkness, and no fan-made content, and yet he played a character with both, refusing to change or admit he violated my rules.

So, why are the DMs in your group (you and the, current, DM) unwilling to put their foot down with the player and tell him, "No" like you would with a misbehaving dog or child?

If he tried this with myself or any DM that I know, he would be given one chance to create a new character following the rules established. If he refused, he would be given the boot by the DM with the blessing of the other players (the same would be true if, later, tried the same stunt with any other DM in the group).

 

[Mad Hamish]

His initiative modifier is +12, so he pretty much automatically knocks out a powerful enemy at the beginning of combat. Knocked out = defeated, with the Coup de Grace rules, or just cutting him up enough.

Really that depends on the encounter.
Against any single CR 6 creature he'll probably win initiative, if there are multiple groups of enemies including some quick ones it's not certain that they'll all act after him and what happens before he acts could impact heavily on what he can do.
if he can detect which are the powerful creatures and if he can get there as a move action then he gets one sneak attack action in on the first round (he's a lot more effective if there's an actual surprise round that the party has achieved but that's not overly common in general)

And yes, he has god stats. Every character he makes gad god stats. I've never seen anything less than a 13 on his character sheets, and never less than two 18s. He decides on whatever stats he wants. I wouldn't mind if he was SAD, but because he's MAD, all those modifiers add up in a crazy way.

If that's the situation then the GM should point either
a) query the stats under point buy or
b) insist that all character stats are rolled while he is watching.

Given those sort of stat arrays damned near any class will get a huge increase in power or survivability.

I'm fairly certain that being grappled means you are flat-footed to every other creature not in a grapple with you. If I'm wrong, then that's another rule manipulation he pulled. Either way, I'm fairly certain that he's finding ways of making opponents flat-footed to him on a regular basis, if not all of the time.

from Conditions - Pathfinder_OGC

Flat-Footed

A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat or Uncanny Dodge class ability.

Characters with Uncanny Dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat.

Grappled

A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. a grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

so no (although it's an understandable mistake because I believe it did in D&D)

Check the methods he's using to get enemies flat-footed and see if they actually work under the rules. If they don't mention it to the GM in private.

Note that flat footed is a condition, not just denied dex to AC so it has to be specifically stated as being flat-footed to get all of the feats to work for this character

Oh, and his damage is 1d6+3 plus 3d6 sneak attack (item for +1 die of sneak attack), plus he adds another 9 to that, so he does 4d6+12, for an average of 26 damage. Higher than your fighter, I believe.

it's 2 points more damage compared to the very unoptimized fighter where the character can get sneak attack and all of the other feats applying - which should be rare.
However the fighter has a lot more feats available to pump damage if desired and hits more often.

Also the fighter does full damage to all monster types that the rogue will while sneak attack and non-lethal damage can mean that various enemies are immune to the rogue.

In addition, he will deal far more damage at higher levels than the Fighter can do. Because of the increased die of damage, at level 11 he's doing 1d6+3 normal damage, and another 10d6+30 from the sneak attack. Oh, and I totally see him taking the feat that allows rerolling 1s on sneak attack damage dice, which again increases his average damage.

a) only if he keeps advancing rogue rather than monk which may not be ideal
b) off the top of my head that feat will add around .5 damage per sneak attack dice so not a huge increase in damage.
c) his attack bonus is going to be down on a full BAB class.

and he'll be doing basically no damage to undead, constructs, oozes or anything with concealment (some of which might be avoidable with feats)

The difference between your fighter and his character is, I don't know, about 6 skill points per level, a ton of class skills, rogue talents, trapfinding, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and evasion. All the fighter gets is saves against fear, and a better to hit bonus. Out of combat, the rogue can do so much more than a fighter can.

You're missing fighter bonus feats, normal movement in heavy armour, Armour training etc from the list of differences as well as hit points and BAB.
Also note that the character loses flurry of blows if he wears any armour which means that his AC will be a fair way behind the fighter...

Rogues are better out of combat and at skill use than fighters, hardly a surprise. However as you level up that becomes much less important when magic is around.
And the general impression I have is that rogue talents aren't that hot.

When it comes to power, I think his rogue far surpasses other fighters. I'm not going to argue about it any more. Sure, if his attack only worked once, maybe it'd be fine. However, he has been able to pull of multiple strikes per fight, making him far more powerful.

10 to 1 he's wrong in how he's doing it.

Honestly, at this point I'm just unhappy that he decided to use Ultimate Combat, a book that the DM was not letting him access. It's just like in my game, I said no Book of Exalted Deed or Vile Darkness, and no fan-made content, and yet he played a character with both, refusing to change or admit he violated my rules.

If you were playing with him, I think you might see things differently, StreamOfTheSky.

that's a different factor from the character he has built being overpowered
a 3.5 D&D fighter with VOP wouldn't have been allowed in your campaign but wouldn't be overpowered.

If the character he's designed is played correctly under the rules it will probably not be overpowered in combat (I've seen some discussion on feat combos that will allow the feats to be used on many attacks but it's not going to be an option for quite a while)

 

[Mad Hamish]

I'm fairly certain that being grappled means you are flat-footed to every other creature not in a grapple with you. If I'm wrong, then that's another rule manipulation he pulled. Either way, I'm fairly certain that he's finding ways of making opponents flat-footed to him on a regular basis, if not all of the time.

paizo.com - Paizo / Help/FAQ

has clarifications on grappled and pinned