FrankTrollman
First Post
This concept is over three years old now.
Of course, back with just the 3rd Edition PHB out we were forced to have high level Wizards use Silent Still Limited Wish to replicate Awaken after using Shapechange to become a squirrel (Limited Wish doesn't require the casting time of Awaken, so it can be done in 1 round, plenty of time before the shapechange wears off).
Yes, using the rules as written it really worked back before the 3rd edition DMG or Monster Manual came out, and they've never fixed it and it's only gotten easier.
No, you don't lose the instantaneous bonuses from Awaken when your shapechange wears off any more than you heal the instantaneous damage from a Fireball when you walk out of range.
Similarly, using the rules as written you can still use Planar Binding spells to get Efreeti to give you Wishes. It's right in the rules, and nothing can make that game balanced (as the DM you can arbitrarily kill the character, but that doesn't balance the game either).
And using the rules as written you can create a Shadow under your absolute unwavering control, who can then create two more shadows under its absolute control, and they can both create two more shadows under their absolute control - and so on without limit.
And using the rules as written you could use Astral Projection to make a perfect copy of all of your stuff. And then walk over and pick up all of your stuff. And then use Astral Projection to make a perfect copy of all of that stuff.
And using the rules as written you could use Gate to call in any named enemy and force him to hand roll taquitos in the negative energy plane for seventeen combat rounds while your entire party beats the crap out of him.
Yes. Using the rules as written these problems are all very real and have been since 3rd edition was written up.
None of these problems have been addressed or solved in any way shape or form by 3.5. In fact, they added two more, to whit:
Now you can use Shapechange to get Supernatural Abilities, so you can use it to copy the supernatural ability of Balors to have seventy two thousand gold pieces in cash every single round for the duration of the spell.
Now you can use Shades to copy Trap the Soul - bypassing the very difficult and expensive material component, creating the quasi-real soul gem anywhere within short range of yourself.
The use of any or all of these tricks is legal with the rules as written, and game breaking.
As the DM it is not your job to "slap" players who bring these sorts of things up - they are clever combos. Cleverness should never be thwarted with aggression.
However, they still can't be allowed. There is no permutation of the actual rules that will disallow these game breaking combos, so just say "No."
Seriously, if you have players who won't accept the reasoning "I won't allow that because it will completely destroy game balance within the game and the game world the game is supposed to represent." - you need some new players.
It's an interesting intellectual excercise, and nothing more. As a DM you simply have to say that you won't allow it. Not because there is some reading of the rules which bars it - there isn't - but because the rules have to come second to having a good time.
-Frank
Of course, back with just the 3rd Edition PHB out we were forced to have high level Wizards use Silent Still Limited Wish to replicate Awaken after using Shapechange to become a squirrel (Limited Wish doesn't require the casting time of Awaken, so it can be done in 1 round, plenty of time before the shapechange wears off).
Yes, using the rules as written it really worked back before the 3rd edition DMG or Monster Manual came out, and they've never fixed it and it's only gotten easier.
No, you don't lose the instantaneous bonuses from Awaken when your shapechange wears off any more than you heal the instantaneous damage from a Fireball when you walk out of range.
Similarly, using the rules as written you can still use Planar Binding spells to get Efreeti to give you Wishes. It's right in the rules, and nothing can make that game balanced (as the DM you can arbitrarily kill the character, but that doesn't balance the game either).
And using the rules as written you can create a Shadow under your absolute unwavering control, who can then create two more shadows under its absolute control, and they can both create two more shadows under their absolute control - and so on without limit.
And using the rules as written you could use Astral Projection to make a perfect copy of all of your stuff. And then walk over and pick up all of your stuff. And then use Astral Projection to make a perfect copy of all of that stuff.
And using the rules as written you could use Gate to call in any named enemy and force him to hand roll taquitos in the negative energy plane for seventeen combat rounds while your entire party beats the crap out of him.
Yes. Using the rules as written these problems are all very real and have been since 3rd edition was written up.
None of these problems have been addressed or solved in any way shape or form by 3.5. In fact, they added two more, to whit:
Now you can use Shapechange to get Supernatural Abilities, so you can use it to copy the supernatural ability of Balors to have seventy two thousand gold pieces in cash every single round for the duration of the spell.
Now you can use Shades to copy Trap the Soul - bypassing the very difficult and expensive material component, creating the quasi-real soul gem anywhere within short range of yourself.
The use of any or all of these tricks is legal with the rules as written, and game breaking.
As the DM it is not your job to "slap" players who bring these sorts of things up - they are clever combos. Cleverness should never be thwarted with aggression.
However, they still can't be allowed. There is no permutation of the actual rules that will disallow these game breaking combos, so just say "No."
Seriously, if you have players who won't accept the reasoning "I won't allow that because it will completely destroy game balance within the game and the game world the game is supposed to represent." - you need some new players.
It's an interesting intellectual excercise, and nothing more. As a DM you simply have to say that you won't allow it. Not because there is some reading of the rules which bars it - there isn't - but because the rules have to come second to having a good time.
-Frank
