Powergaming w/ Awaken: I have +2 HD!

[youspoonybard]

Only a group of rules lawyers would debate a topic such as this. Most DM's would simply deny the player.

It seems like this is a subtle attack on the 3.5 rules using a rather strange example that most people, including the game designers, probably would overlook. No DM is ever going to Awaken allow this to happen.

I fail to see the trouble with the druid's type changing to animal or plant save for this circumstance. Are there a variety of other circumstances where the type change is a problem?

Oh, I fully agree.

It's just interesting to take the rules and run with them once in a while : P.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Oh, I fully agree.

It's just interesting to take the rules and run with them once in a while : P.

That is what I am beginning to realize. It isn't so much that rules lawyers like Hypersmurf or yourself plan to allow such an abuse of the rules, you just enjoy analyzing the possibilities from a rules perspective.

Some of the rules abuse people concoct is pretty amazing. I always wonder if there are some "marshmellow" DM's who actually allow their players to run roughshod over them and use abusive rule combinations like this one.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I fail to see the trouble with the druid's type changing to animal or plant save for this circumstance. Are there a variety of other circumstances where the type change is a problem?

As has been pointed out, it breaks the definition of Animal; the type description specifically states "no creature with an Intelligence of 3 or greater can be an Animal".

Type change in general leads to weirdness. You can Baleful Polymorph a zombie into a cat - giving him the animal type instead of the undead type. Since a zombie's immunity to mind-affecting spells is a trait of the undead type, he's no longer immune... but if he made his Will save, he still has -- Intelligence.

What happens if you cast Dominate Person on someone, and then they are Polymorphed into an aberration, say? Are they still Dominated?

It's also inconsistent - a creature that changes shape with the Alternate Form Su ability retains its original type.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That is what I am beginning to realize. It isn't so much that rules lawyers like Hypersmurf or yourself plan to allow such an abuse of the rules, you just enjoy analyzing the possibilities from a rules perspective.

It took you over a year to realise that?

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

Only a group of rules lawyers would debate a topic such as this. Most DM's would simply deny the player.

It seems like this is a subtle attack on the 3.5 rules using a rather strange example that most people, including the game designers, probably would overlook. No DM is ever going to Awaken allow this to happen.

I fail to see the trouble with the druid's type changing to animal or plant save for this circumstance. Are there a variety of other circumstances where the type change is a problem?

The problem is with the type changes in general. If a ninth-level druid casts baleful polymorph on a twentieth-level wizard and turns him into a dire rat, the wizard may well keep his mind while losing his shape. What happens when the druid then uses her animal friendship ability on the wizard? Does it make a difference if the wizard lost his mind as well? What happens when someone dispels the baleful polymorph?

What aspects of being a plant does the druid gain? Is the druid immune to critical hits? Mind-affecting spells? Is the druid subject to Dominate Animal? Animal growth?

If subject to animal growth, we get the terrifying ninth-level druid who takes out her spiked chain, turns into a dire ape, and (using natural spell) casts animal growth on herself, gaining a 30' reach at ninth level. With combat reflexes and improved trip, that druid is going to own anyone who attacks.

Finally, the new wildshape rules have other problems: by allowing only special attacks but no other special qualities to transfer over to the druid, the new rules turn wildshape into an almost exclusively combat-oriented ability. A great deal of the fun I've had playing a druid has been using different forms for their different cool factors: an eagle when I needed to scout someone from high above (getting those crazy racial spot bonuses), an owl when I needed to scout at night (getting move silently and spot bonuses), a wolf when I needed to follow a trail (getting the scent ability), and so on. With the new rules, there's little reason ever to turn into anything beyond either the form that flies fastest or the form that hurts mostest.

Daniel

 

[youspoonybard]

But you DO get those racial bonuses...

You just don't get scent and blindsight, really.

 

[youspoonybard]

Hyp,

How are you polymorphing a zombie into a cat? Fort save...PaO would work, but PaO does grant the new int score, so it's a moot point.

 

[Pielorinho]

My bad on the racial bonuses. Good catch on the fort save; from the description of undead traits:

—Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

What would happen if you PAO a zombie into a cockroach, then cast baleful polymorph on the cockroach, polymorphing it into a rat? What would the creature's INT be? What happens when PAO wears off?

Stupid type changes!
Daniel

 

[Caliban]

Not to mention things like a druids Wildshaping into animals, and then having Animal Growth cast on them. Or polymorphing the party fight into a polar bear and then having the druid cast Animal Growth...

 

[youspoonybard]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Animal Growthing Wild Shape forms was *intended* by the designers, or at the very least, was not an oversight.