Powergaming, who is on board?

[Patlin]

I don't think putting 4 into strength for a barbarian has anything to do with this discussion.

To me powergaming is better defined as a person who chooses character abilities with the intention of building a character who routinely achieves results above the expected norm for that level

You don't think putting the 4 or 18 into strength effects whether or not your results will be above or below the 'expected norm' for the level? I'm afraid I don't understand your definition of powergaming then. You'd have to agree that either placement is legitimate, and that it's clearly the players choice (given the 4d6 and arange system I've posited for purpose of the argument) which one to choose. One is simply more effective for the designated role than the other. Character creation contains hundreds of decision like this, and I can understand how you could say that any one decision doesn't tell the whole story, but the reasons for prefering the 18 in strength and the 4 in charisma for a Barbarian character instead of the other way around seem to be what you describe in your definition.

 

[questbreaker]

this is a good discussion guys!

we have an UBER power-player in our group. he is good at roleplaying too but he is outshining everyone else (plus he is 4 levels higher than any of us.) so the other 3 of us are going to band our abilities together to kill his character. i already told the DM whats up and he said he is anxious to see what will happen.

 

[Shadeydm]

No I am declining to participte in your little Kobayashi Maru for lack of better term.

 

[Patlin]

No I am declining to participte in your little Kobayashi Maru for lack of better term.

I really don't see why you think my example is a no win situation, but I certainly won't call on you to continue in the discussion if you aren't finding it entertaining. All in good fun, right? Hope I haven't accidentally offended.

 

[mvincent]

we have an UBER power-player in our group. he is good at roleplaying too but he is outshining everyone else (plus he is 4 levels higher than any of us.) so the other 3 of us are going to band our abilities together to kill his character. i already told the DM whats up and he said he is anxious to see what will happen.

1) Why is he higher level than everyone else? Of course he will be outshining everyone with that disparity, but this situation shouldn't happen in normal D&D i.e. XP is shared to begin with, and lower level characters get more XP than higher levels ones anyway.
2) Trying to kill his character (without discussing it with him first) seems an excellent way to get everyone to hate each other (regardless of the outcome). Is that your goal?

 

[Geoff Watson]

I don't think putting 4 into strength for a barbarian has anything to do with this discussion.

Sounds like the "Real Roleplayers" who would purposely have a pathetic character to "prove" they aren't powergaming and therefore superior roleplayers.

Geoff.

 

[Seeten]

Again I think we are seeing things quite differently to me only the powergamer is going to buy an 18 at the cost of having a 4 ability score.

Uh, I'm a roleplaying powergamer, and I dont like 4's in my ability scores, not even in charisma. I dont see where this characterization comes from.

 

[kaomera]

Powergaming, the act of creating a PC for the pure ability to get the highest hit/magic/ whatever, has been an issue since the start of the game (deomnstrated by even comment of our benevolent creator of the game, way back inthe day). Is it more socially acceptable now in the later versions of D&D (3,3.5) to do this?

First of all, it isn't a question of editions. There was powergaming when I started with 1e AD&D, and just like today different groups where ok with differing levels of it.

Are GMs looking for players who build bonus monsters without regard to the campaign's focus/storyline? (And if so, do these GMs actually have a storyline or is it just videogame style hack and slash?)

OK, I don't see that there is a direct connection between powergaming and ignoring the campaign, unless somehow a specific campaign was designed specifically to thwart powergamers (which, IMO, would probably be more of a problem than the powergaming in the first place!). Some players aren't going to really connect with any given campaign, and they'll tend to build more vanilla characters. However it's been my experience that most powergamers will make at least a token effort to tie their characters to the campaign-world, if only because they can probably expect the DM to question them on their character choices. Wouldn't do to have DM tell you to remove a key part of your build strategy because "it just doesn't fit in with the campaign", now would it?

And anyway, if the DM doesn't have a storyline he's pushing, maybe the players can come up with something... That doesn't automatically make the game "videogame style hack and slash".

Are players more interested in building Stat-mosnters rather than giving full run to a personality-monster (Roll-playing rather than RolePlaying)?

"Players"? Which players? All players? Nope. Some players? Probably.

What are we doing to encourage powergaming? (tips and tricks for rules lawyering etc)

What are we doing to stifle Powergaming? (Calling a B.S. on it, pulling the battle-moster into a city of varying power and draconian law. etc)

"We"? We're doing nothing, I don't even play in your game.

Me? Again, nothing. Most of my players really couldn't powergame their way out of a paper bag. Some of them are great roleplayers, others aren't.

 

[ThePublic]

The main problem I have with threads that pick on powergaming is that every poster that I've seen pick on powergaming cares nothing for making sweeping generalizations.

... which this is.... um. well forget that. I make sweeping statements to intially see what float to the surface- usually more sweeping statements (entertaining, no?)

the issue is further expanded upon. That is what I am really looking for- so thanks!

 

[ThePublic]

WOOO HOOOOO!!!!!!

I haven't seen this much real passion in a post since I came (mind you that isn't long at all)

Hurt feelings?!?!? No hurt feelings here, just passion and joy for the responses I see (and yes I am reading it all)

but for Clarity (of the initial post)

the We I am talking about is the collective We as GMs, DMs, PCs, and for a smaller part NPCs in the D&D system. If you do not take responsibility for what you do then the garbage you may put in will effect another down the road (or in this example, the hard questions and honest answers)

For personal jibes and pokes- Thanks! it is good to see that you care enough to poke for the parts that should hurt! But no, I actually have worked in action fields (private money collection, and as of my adulthood- medicine- hence the time to do this!) I have seen the same issues in 1st ed as well, but the groups I ran into really had a concerted effort to stifle it as soon as it started interfering with roleplay (building to be contrary and off kilter does this on occasion).

Now for a bit more clarification: I never said make your character a weenie (since very few folks want to play or play with a weenie), i was referring to folks taking a class just for a special ability or two without a clear concept of why (storywise).

As for the Mighty Rules that even the DM must follow I fondly think back and pardon the paraphrasing here but : "These are merely the basis of the rules, use or change them as you see fit, as it is your (as a Dm) world" Sorry, but as in all sets of house rulings (and there is one for every house) the rules are not perfect or unchangeable, and this is where the issues lie and the things that we do to them will live on in our own groups and in the groups of players we touch.

and FYI- I moved away from my old group- hence the interviewing a new group. i turned away folks w.o jobs, cars, hygene, but mainly I turned away statmonsters that said, "Um their parents died and now they are half demon killers that are gonna start with at least two magic items, um right?" A generalization, but I am sure you get the point.

Oh yeah, I unforgivingly kick out all whiners, criers and cheaters, but hey thats from personal preference and has little to nothing to do with the discussion- which I have enjoyed profusely. Please lets have some more!

Eagerly Awaiting more Good Stuff,

The Public