Powers that "duplicate" as basic attacks

[Perun]

This has in all likelihood been covered before, but here it goes

Certain attack powers allow the character to use them "as a basic attack". For example, the final line in the description of the duid's at-will power Rending Strike reads: Special: This power can be used as a melee basic attack.

Does that qualify Savage Rend to be uses as a basic attack in any situation in which a basic attack could be used (like, say, as part of a charge)?

Also, does it gain any bonuses from various sources that normally apply to basic attacks (such as the damage bonus from the Bracers of Mighty Striking).

The problem here is that different powers that resemble basic attacks have different explanations. For example, Magic Missile clearly states that it "counts as a ranged basic attack".

Has there been any ruling on this issue?

Thanks in advance.

Regards.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

Yes you can use savage rend on a charge and it benefits from bracers of mighty striking.

Powers that can be used as basic attacks should specify whether it is melee or ranged. Some circumstances only let you use one or the other (charging only allows melee, so you cannot use magic missile, just as you cannot charge and shoot your long bow). Some circumstances just say "make a basic attack" (many warlord powers) which could be either.

 

[Donderafosti]

Bracers of Mighty Striking

For the Bracers of Mighty Striking, I would think the bonus only applies when you specifically make "a melee basic attack". Powers that "can be used as" a melee basic attack aren't "a melee basic attack" and then wouldn't get the bonus.

Certainly not conclusive evidence, but, playing around with the character builder for a bit, the only power with which I could get the +2 bonus from the bracers was the warlock eldrich strike, and the wording on that is that it "counts as" a melee basic attack (meaning that in game terms "eldrich strike" and "a melee basic attack" are the same thing, opposed to other powers that let you replace the "melee basic attack" with another attack power)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, apparently they've made a distinction between powers which "count as" and thus ARE BAs and those which are only able to be used in place of a BA. Notice that the former category is VERY small and just basically gives non-melee classes something to use for BA that actually works for them. The later category OTOH is rather open-ended since there are various feats which can allow a wide variety of powers to fill that role.

 

[eamon]

But if you're making a melee basic attack, and you have a bonus to melee basic attacks, does it matter with which power you execute that melee basic attack?

E.g. if you're making an OA with a power that can be "be used as" a melee basic attack, then you're using it as a melee basic attack. It may not be a melee basic attack at all times, but while you're using it as one, it counts as one.


I don't see the distinction between "counts as" and "may be used as" for this purpose. Counts as suggests that it's always a melee basic attack, whereas the "may be used as" suggests that it's optional, but I'm not sure whether that's actually ever relevant.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

But if you're making a melee basic attack, and you have a bonus to melee basic attacks, does it matter with which power you execute that melee basic attack?

E.g. if you're making an OA with a power that can be "be used as" a melee basic attack, then you're using it as a melee basic attack. It may not be a melee basic attack at all times, but while you're using it as one, it counts as one.


I don't see the distinction between "counts as" and "may be used as" for this purpose. Counts as suggests that it's always a melee basic attack, whereas the "may be used as" suggests that it's optional, but I'm not sure whether that's actually ever relevant.

Well, the ruling seams to be that if it "counts as" an MBA then it gains all benefits accrued specifically to MBAs, like any item or feat bonuses that apply only to an MBA. If it "may be used as" then it ISN'T an MBA, its just allowed via a special rule to be used in places where an MBA could be used, like at the end of a charge. It isn't actually one, and thus won't get any bonuses that are specific to an MBA. So yeah, there is a difference. Its rather hair-splitting but they have made this distinction apparently.

 

[Stalker0]

I would rule MBA's and "counts as" MBA's should get all the same bonuses.

Don't forget MBA's are powers as well!

 

[RedBeardJim]

I don't see the distinction between "counts as" and "may be used as" for this purpose. Counts as suggests that it's always a melee basic attack, whereas the "may be used as" suggests that it's optional, but I'm not sure whether that's actually ever relevant.

I agree with this. The true exception are the powers that state they can be used "in place of" a melee basic attack.

Focusing on the Druid, the reason for those at-wills that can be used as melee basic attacks is that while in beast form, a Druid can only use powers with the "Beast Form" keyword, which the standard MBA doesn't have. Note that there are two of them (Savage Rend and whatever the other one is) that have the "can be used as" wording and one (Pounce) with the "used in place of" wording, specifically on a charge.

I think they just changed the wording somewhat between PH1 and PH2. PH1 uses the "counts as" language, PH2 uses the "can be used as" language. They mean the same as far as I can tell.

Edit: for a more specific example, Eldritch Blast from the PH1 uses the "counts as a ranged basic attack" wording, while Acid Orb from the PH2 uses the "can be used as a ranged basic attack" wording. They both gain the benefit from Bracers of the Perfect Shot (+2 item bonus to damage with ranged basic attacks) in the Character Builder.

 

[Turtlejay]

So, if your DM is being stubbon about it, and saying that "can be used" or whatever means that you don't get the benefit, then what is to prevent you from saying "Fine, I make a Ranged Basic Attack, and use Eldrich Blast/Acid Orb/whatever."

Sure it is a fine distinction, but a meaningless one, since you are rarely if ever blocked from making basic attacks.

Jay