Pramas on the OGL

[Vigilance]

There are plenty more than that. Naming a couple that folks almost universally hail as bad products is a good way to keep the thread from turning into a bunch of folks crawling out of the woodwork, saying, "But I like the Complete Barmaid. Sure it was missing about ten pages out of the middle and the art was crayon drawings, but I used the heck out of it in my games."

But you're right - the first few years were the worst. Of course, that's because there were fewer and fewer publishers as the years marched on. Which means consumers weren't reaping the supposed benefits of the OGL: a wide field of products to choose from.

Seanchai

So wait, bad products in the beginning means the OGL sucked, and fewer companies making OGL books as the years go on means the OGL failed?

Nice little lose-lose situation you've painted.

Except it's 100% wrong, because there are 100s of companies making OGL books right now if one opens one's eyes to the PDF field.

 

[Voadam]

But you're right - the first few years were the worst. Of course, that's because there were fewer and fewer publishers as the years marched on. Which means consumers weren't reaping the supposed benefits of the OGL: a wide field of products to choose from.

Seanchai

Are you sure that the fact that poorer products were made in the beginning was not because at first people had poorer mastery of the then-new system? For instance Sword and Fist was an early WotC product that was widely panned for certain of its elements such as a 10 level martial prestige class with 0 BAB progression.

Are you arguing there are not a wide field of recent OGL products for consumers to choose from?

Green Ronin, Goodman Games, Paizo, and Mongoose have been putting out a bunch of OGL stuff, though Goodman has stopped in anticipation of 4e and switched to statless and house systems for the interim wait.

So that gives us recent OGL products for Freeport, Bleeding Edge Modules, Dungeon Crawl modules, XCrawl, other Goodman OGL lines, Pathfinder modules, Game Mastery products, Runequest stuff, Conan Stuff, and other Mongoose line stuff.

 

[Seanchai]

So wait, bad products in the beginning means the OGL sucked, and fewer companies making OGL books as the years go on means the OGL failed?

No. It means it didn't actually benefit the consumer.

As I said before, the OGL put plenty of products on the shelves. But it put good and bad products on the shelf. It didn't provide consumers with any tools to determine which OGL products were good and which were bad. And as there were plenty of publishers who were just looking to jump on a bandwagon, didn't understand the mechanics, didn't understand what consumers were looking for out of a product, etc., there were more misses than hits.

That's not a situation I would call a benefit.

Then, as the years pass, the quality situation improves. But now we're missing the breadth of field that the OGL is supposed to deliver. Now I can pick up...well, some really nice adventures.

Again, not exactly a fantastic benefit for the consumer.

But I'm also thinking about other games with OGLs and licenses when I say that D&D's doesn't benefit the consumer. Most folks say, "Other games have licenses like the OGL?" and I think that's a pretty strong indication of just how much they've been impacted by similar situations.

Seanchai

 

[Nellisir]

No. It means it didn't actually benefit the consumer.

As I said before, the OGL put plenty of products on the shelves. But it put good and bad products on the shelf. It didn't provide consumers with any tools to determine which OGL products were good and which were bad. And as there were plenty of publishers who were just looking to jump on a bandwagon, didn't understand the mechanics, didn't understand what consumers were looking for out of a product, etc., there were more misses than hits.

That's not a situation I would call a benefit.

Then, as the years pass, the quality situation improves. But now we're missing the breadth of field that the OGL is supposed to deliver. Now I can pick up...well, some really nice adventures.

Again, not exactly a fantastic benefit for the consumer.

I've got to be brief about this. In essence, I think people (myself included) underestimated the maturation period of the OGL & d20 system. Obviously, people didn't fully understand it right out of the gate, and companies went under as a result of that. Those that survived, however, are far better educated, and I suspect if 3.5 had continued, we would've seen another rise in d20-compatible products with far, far more robust rules and products.

 

[2WS-Steve]

No. It means it didn't actually benefit the consumer.

As I said before, the OGL put plenty of products on the shelves. But it put good and bad products on the shelf. It didn't provide consumers with any tools to determine which OGL products were good and which were bad. And as there were plenty of publishers who were just looking to jump on a bandwagon, didn't understand the mechanics, didn't understand what consumers were looking for out of a product, etc., there were more misses than hits.

That's not a situation I would call a benefit.

That's an argument I just don't understand.

The fact that anyone can make a pizza, and, as a result, America is covered with Domino's shops producing crummy pizza -- most likely creating a far greater ratio of bad pizza to good pizza than the ratio of bad OGL books to good OGL books -- doesn't hurt me at all. I just go eat at the good pizza joints.

The OGL isn't some sort of educational tool for the purpose of telling customers what to buy -- it's a licensing mechanism for writers and publishers to produce books that are largely compatible with each other. It's up to the producers to make good books. And, as always, it's up to the customer to find which ones best suit their needs.

 

[Voadam]

Then, as the years pass, the quality situation improves. But now we're missing the breadth of field that the OGL is supposed to deliver. Now I can pick up...well, some really nice adventures.

Again, not exactly a fantastic benefit for the consumer.

The breadth of field provided by the OGL has not gone away.

Want more fiends than are in the Fiendish Codexes? Pick up Book of Fiends and Slayer's Guide to Demons.

Want a big Fantasy city that is not Waterdeep, Sharn, or Stormreach? Pick up Ptolus, Freeport, Silver City, World's Largest City, or Bluffside.

Got Spell Compendium and want more spells? Pick up Complete Book of Eldritch Might.

Want a niche campaign setting? Gunpowder and coal powered mechs you pick up Iron Kingdoms. Dark Tolkien where Sauron won? Midnight. High Magic D&D with tons of races and room for all the wierd classes and material from WotC's splatbooks? Oathbound. Points of Light post apocalyptic Godwar aftermath? Scarred Lands. World of Warcraft as a tabletop setting? World of Warcraft.

Want a mega-adventure like the adventure paths? Drow War Trilogy, Pathfinder, Coils of Set, Shades of Gray, Castle Blackmoor, Castle Whitrock, Rappan Athuk reloaded, World's Largest Dungeon.

Want more game rule tool kit options for tinkering with the system like Unearthed Arcana? Pick up Book of Experimental might.

Want fey stuff? Complete Guide to Fey, Celtic Adventures Fairies, Imperial Age Fairies, Fairies, Encyclopedia Divine Fey Magic.

Want mechs in D&D? DragonMech, Doomstriders, Iron Kingdoms.

Want steampunk D&D? Steam and Steel, Sorcery and Steam, OGL Steampunk, Steamworks,

Want more monsters? Monsternomicons, Creature Collections, Denizens of Avadnu, Penumbra Fantasy Bestiary, Manual of Monsters, EN Critter Series, Creature Weekly, etc.

Want D&D with more warrior superhero action and less magic items? Try Iron Heroes

Want D&D with different rules tweaks for different play experiences? Try Conan, Runequest, Spycraft with the fantasy option, etc.

Even if it was just fantastic adventures, that would still be a benefit for consumers who buy adventures.

 

[BryonD]

That's an argument I just don't understand.

His argument presumes the customer is completely incapable of making a judgment of quality for themself.

If anyone wants to claim that the OGL didn't add a ton of great material to my game table then I will simply laugh at them as a fool. WotC put out some good stuff and they put out some real dogs. I can think of a few 3rd party publishers with better consistency than WotC. But, WotC still rocked because they put out some really great stuff and they are judged by what I bought, not nearly as much by what I choose to bypass. But 3rd parties, all together, added more content to the games I have played in the 3E era than WotC alone did.

The OGL was a benefit beyond measure.

 

[Vigilance]

No. It means it didn't actually benefit the consumer.

As I said before, the OGL put plenty of products on the shelves. But it put good and bad products on the shelf. It didn't provide consumers with any tools to determine which OGL products were good and which were bad. And as there were plenty of publishers who were just looking to jump on a bandwagon, didn't understand the mechanics, didn't understand what consumers were looking for out of a product, etc., there were more misses than hits.

That's not a situation I would call a benefit.

What you're describing is life, which has nothing to do with the OGL, or its success or failure.

There are ALWAYS good and bad entertainment being released.

So some TV shows are good, some are bad, and the customer has to try and suss that out for themselves.

That means the TV industry doesn't beneift the consumer?

I saw a bad movie or two last year.

So that means the whole movie industry is a failure?

You have a very high bar of success.

In fact, since you seem to be saying that success ONLY equals a lot of material, all of it being good, so customers never have to make an informed choice, that means nothing in thne history of the world, ever, has been a success.

And of course, this leaves out the possibility that some people might actually have different tastes, that a product you like I might hate.

 

[Lizard]

The early days of the OGL were the Cambrian explosion. Many weird and wonderful things were born. Later, evolution trimmed back the odder branches and strengthened what are now the dominant lines. I was hoping for a similar explosion of creativity with the release of 4e, but looks like it ain't gonna happen.

 

[xechnao]

That's an argument I just don't understand.

The fact that anyone can make a pizza, and, as a result, America is covered with Domino's shops producing crummy pizza -- most likely creating a far greater ratio of bad pizza to good pizza than the ratio of bad OGL books to good OGL books -- doesn't hurt me at all. I just go eat at the good pizza joints.

The OGL isn't some sort of educational tool for the purpose of telling customers what to buy -- it's a licensing mechanism for writers and publishers to produce books that are largely compatible with each other. It's up to the producers to make good books. And, as always, it's up to the customer to find which ones best suit their needs.

It hurts me. Domino becomes a standard and the probabilities are that Domino will be the one to serve me when I get hungry.