Pramas on the OGL

[xechnao]

So systemless products don't exist? Reality check: ideas extend beyond mechanical rule systems.

Well, these are still unfit for the hobby to be based on. They are not suitable to initiate the newcomers.

Maybe, but I haven't seen a system reach its limits yet. Certainly not 3e, which is a relatively decent universal system, and thus has a high idea potentiality.

As a system 3e has a point where beyond that expansion conflicts on balance with the core. Being universal means that it is easy to fit various systemless expressions to the system. The limit here is imagination but it is yet clear that for various expressions there are better systems. If not the mathematics of D20 would have been the universal base of expression not only in the hobby market but in the whole world.

 

[SSquirrel]

Of course even w/3E they are very aware of the "sweet spot" which in 4E they have tried their best to have the math balance out thru all levels of play. Maybe this means that if 4E is open that it would have even more varied possibilities than the 3.x d20 rules allowed. Except that we know they don't want variant PHBs and such, so it's already less open.

 

[xechnao]

Of course even w/3E they are very aware of the "sweet spot" which in 4E they have tried their best to have the math balance out thru all levels of play. Maybe this means that if 4E is open that it would have even more varied possibilities than the 3.x d20 rules allowed. Except that we know they don't want variant PHBs and such, so it's already less open.

It is still a D20 game -same math but applied differently by the core's expressions -which practically are the set out of the game. It may seem to many or most people that 4e applies the D20 system in a "sweeter" way than 3e.

 

[catsclaw]

That could have also been her misspeaking and referring to the GSL.

Even if she didn't misspeak, it could have been standard corporate gibberish that doesn't actually mean what it says (cf. "We are taking this very seriously ..."). I think that's what everyone's hoping.

 

[SSquirrel]

It is still a D20 game -same math but applied differently by the core's expressions -which practically are the set out of the game. It may seem to many or most people that 4e applies the D20 system in a "sweeter" way than 3e.

Which is part of why 4E should sell pretty well. If gameplay is not horrendously bogged down at 25th level just as fun as it is at 6th level, that will be a major improvement. Actually a lot of the math is different, remember that spells were largely powered down to allow for the at will/encounter/day. Everyone has more HP, more self healing. So really a lot is different, even if it is still discernible as being a d20 based game.

 

[xechnao]

Actually a lot of the math is different, remember that spells were largely powered down to allow for the at will/encounter/day. Everyone has more HP, more self healing. So really a lot is different, even if it is still discernible as being a d20 based game.

The math is the same. The proposed operations for the game are different than the ones of 3e.

 

[SSquirrel]

I was reading the 4E boards at Monte's site and he interjected this bit (as well as a later tidbit that AU/AE sold in the range of 30k copies)

http://okayyourturn.yuku.com/sreply/149174/t/4E-AE-I-really-do-hope-so-.html

Not to speak for Monte or dredge the battle about his 2 year old OGL comments, but that post was made 3/13/08 and would seem to reflect some current OGL thinking on his part.


EDIT:For the lazy:

Monte said:

"{I understand your point of view, but the reality hasn't held up that point of view. WOTC has mentioned the many reasons they are not sticking with a complete OGL. Basically, the OGL became a competition for WOTC.}

I'm positive that you're correct that this is what they've said, but that doesn't mean they're right. I think it's more a symptom of the fact that every single person in the company that supported the OGL concept and truly understood the benefits of it is gone now and has been for at least a year.

This is long, but I sort of feel the need to restate it every once in a while. I don't mean to jump on anyone here, though.

To bring this back to AU/AE, let's use it as an example (since it gets used as an example of things that "hurt" WotC through the OGL from time to time). Yes, we had tremendous sales in with AU/AE. Significant even by WotC standards. But I'll ask you, AE fans, in the long run, which of these options best describes the majority of you:
A. You refrained from buying a WotC product you would have otherwise bought so you could buy AU or AE that month, and DIDN'T buy that WotC product later.
B. You stopped buying WotC products altogether BECAUSE of AU/AE.
C. You bought AU/AE but also buy lots of WotC products, either because you also play D&D, or you use them to supplement AE.
D. You bought AU/AE to supplement your D&D game.
E. You stayed with d20-style gaming longer than you would have because of AU/AE.

I'll argue (and I've really been paying attention the last four and a half years) that the vast majority of AU customers were D. Many AU and most of AE customers are C. E is significantly larger than B, which indicates that AU/AE helped D&D more than it hurt. A, the most straightforward example of actual product competition, basically doesn't exist, other than a few corner cases.

And AU/AE's sales are by far the exception in this industry, rather than the rule. Any professional that claims that companies putting a few thousand copies of something providing tangible competetion (that outweighs the benefits*) just doesn't understand the realities of the rpg marketplace.

*To pre-empt a bit, the benefits to D&D of someone buying a non-WotC OGL product are these:
1. Every purchase of an OGL product keeps the customer playing D&D or a D&D-like game rather than learning an entirely new system, which is far more likely to encourage someone to drop D&D.
2. Every purchase of an OGL product keeps the customer playing rpgs. When I was at WotC we realized that the actual competitor to D&D isn't any other game, computer games, and so on. It's real life. People quit playing because they get other friends, get a girlfriend, move away, get married, get busy at work, have kids, lose interest, or find other hobbies. Anything that keeps people gaming a little longer makes it that much more likely that they'll still buy D&D products.
3. A good (or even mediocre) OGL product may serve to fix a customer's percieved problem with D&D and keeps them playing. The more of them the better.
4. A lot of OGL products make the D&D brand look more significant in the marketplace.

So. How 'bout them rhodin?"

 

[mhensley]

But Dragon became something where, instead of seeing alot of newcomers and one-time authors, I saw the same "high-end" freelancers and WotC employers over and over.

Yep, I noticed that too and it's a big reason I quit reading Dragon. There's a big difference between articles written because somebody had a neat idea opposed to ones churned out just to get a paycheck.

 

[Voadam]

Perhaps for you personaly. But I believe it has not been working like this in the market. A starting group that decides to play Conan or Ptolus will influence its gamers to buy from the Conan or Ptolus series.
Claro?

Perhaps for me personally? I just said so in the post you were responding to. Please don't imply that I'm a liar.

I think the examples you use argue the other way actually.

Prior to the OGL there was GURPS Conan. A person looking to play in a Conan RPG picking up the Conan book would get GURPS stuff and probably will get GURPS supplements like GURPS Fantasy Bestiary to supplement their game instead of D&D stuff. After they have played their conan campaign if they want something more they will have learned and be familiar with GURPS rules and are more likely to go on to different GURPS stuff.

With OGL Conan a person starting with Conan will be familiar with basic D&D rules and might buy WotC D&D products that are fairly compatible to support their Conan game. Setting supplements will be Conan ones, but if they want more monsters or traps they must look to D&D type books such as the monster manuals. If after playing Conan they are looking for something different they will be familiar with D&D rules and the various D&D options which makes entering and switching to D&D easier.

So for people who start with a Conan RPG having an OGL Conan game seems significantly better for WotC.

With Ptolus it is a third-party D&D city setting with its own outer world and cosmology, but also designed to be fairly easy to plug into other campaign worlds. The group still needs a PH, DMG, and MM.

Malhavoc's Ptolus stuff includes: Ptolus, Player's Guide to Ptolus, Secrets of the Delvers (collected miscellanea), Banewarrens (a midlevel module), Night of Dissolution (mid level module), and Chaositech (evil power sourcebook). There is also a module by Fiery Dragon, some counters by Fiery Dragon, and some maps by Skeleton Key Games. I can't think of anything else.

There are other Malhavok support products that occupy the same niches as some WotC products, but there is no reason to exclusively use Ptolus or Malhavok stuff when playing a Ptolus campaign. Anyone who plays Ptolus as written is playing D&D, has bought D&D stuff, and has reason to keep buying D&D stuff. The Malhavoc Ptolus branded player support material is a single product, the free Player's Guide to the City. Malhavc's other player support materials are not Ptolus specific but generic D&D products. Malhavoc's Complete Book of Eldritch Might and WotC's Spell Compendium both support a Ptolus campaign and a purchaser wanting a lot more spells will get both or either for their D&D game, and the Spell Compendium is more widely available.

If they want player or DM support material there is a ton of applicable support material from WotC for them to buy. Also, if they want to move on from the City of Ptolus it is easy to transition to WotC settings like Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Eberron, or Dragonlance. If they want to go to another D&D city they can easily transition to gaming in WotC's Waterdeep, Sharn, or Stormreach.

It does not seem that groups starting D&D using OGL Ptolus as their setting will be a bad thing for WotC selling D&D products.

The closest argument is for OGL games that are essentially different mechanical games than D&D, such as Mutants and Masterminds or OGL Runequest.

People starting with M&M don't have a lot of WotC products that can supplement their game and have a bit of a jarring mechanics transition if they want to switch to D&D. There are similiarities in having saves, attack rolls, etc. but it is not as easy a transition as closer mechanical stand alone OGL games such as Arcana Evolved. Even so it is closer to D&D than HERO or Marvel Superheroes, for examples, and therefore seems still to be a net benefit for WotC.

 

[Voadam]

You're prescribing your own buying habbits on top of the rest of the market. I'm suggesting that the average ENworld DnD player isn't necessarily the average DnD player, and especially isn't necessarily the typical DnD consumer.

Actually you said

you *CAN NOT* deny that without the OGL, WotC would have made more money.

If you are only suggesting that maybe things might not necessarily be the same for the entire purchasing market then you have not established how nobody can deny that without the OGL WotC would have made more money.

I know that for me the OGL diverted some purchasing money from non d20 publishers to d20 ones.

I have no market data on RPG purchasing.

The most in-depth information I'm aware of was WotC's surveying in prep for 3e which led to formulation of the OGL as a means to support WotC's D&D brand and ultimately sell more WotC D&D products.

There are arguments that the OGL is good for WotC. These make sense to me and correlate to things I have seen including my own purchasing experiences.
Well supported D&D games leading to people playing D&D and purchases of WotC stuff.

The arguments that the OGL cost WotC money seem weaker and less credulous to me.
Zero sum competition, loss of monopoly, "flood of crap devaluing d20", BoEF, etc.