PRCs that dont offer full spellcasting progression

[Celtavian]

re

I have to agree. I hope the WotC game designers take into account that classes or Prcs that don't give full spellcasting levels in regard to caster level checks to overcome spell resistance are useless in the high level game. Even the average enemy with spell resistance, whether innate or from a spell, will be too high for a caster with less than full caster level to ovecome.

This applies to casters such as Bladesingers or Spellswords. Renders many of their abilities useless.

Poor game design in my opinion. If the designers are going to give a class spellcasting ability, they should at least have the presence of mind to make it useful at high level when it is most needed.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I have to agree. I hope the WotC game designers take into account that classes or Prcs that don't give full spellcasting levels in regard to caster level checks to overcome spell resistance are useless in the high level game. Even the average enemy with spell resistance, whether innate or from a spell, will be too high for a caster with less than full caster level to ovecome.

This applies to casters such as Bladesingers or Spellswords. Renders many of their abilities useless.

Poor game design in my opinion. If the designers are going to give a class spellcasting ability, they should at least have the presence of mind to make it useful at high level when it is most needed.

That's what Practiced Spellcaster is for (among other things). Yes, that is another feat, but there was a reason why you lost the caster levels in the first place... The feat is especially nice since it only helps those that still need help.

 

[Question]

Argent Savant (at 1st level) gets Force Specialization. +2 competence bonus on attack rolls made with force spells and +1 per die to damage.

Sorry this is totally incomparable to gaining more spells and/or higher level spells known. Between getting, say, 8th level spells or this, i would gladly take 8th level spells. I am not saying it is not a nice class ability.......it makes orb of forces much more potent than they already are, but it cant be compared to spellcasting progression.

 

[irdeggman]

Argent Savant (at 1st level) gets Force Specialization. +2 competence bonus on attack rolls made with force spells and +1 per die to damage.

Sorry this is totally incomparable to gaining more spells and/or higher level spells known. Between getting, say, 8th level spells or this, i would gladly take 8th level spells. I am not saying it is not a nice class ability.......it makes orb of forces much more potent than they already are, but it cant be compared to spellcasting progression.

Wasn't there a recent discussion on whether or not magic missile was too powerful a spell?

Magic missile is the spell specifically called out via the prestige class.

So the class casts MM at 1d4 +2 damage per missile.

The entire point of prestige classes is to give a class with something "special".

If they all add +1 to caster level then by their very nature they must have to give up the "coolness" and "special features". If all someone is interested in is spell progression then they should never take prestige classes for this very reason.

 

[Sejs]

My general rule of thumb is, in regard of spellcaster characters, that I am willing to lose up to a maximum of 3 caster levels, particularly if it's appropriate to the character.

If I'm playing a concept character, than a hit in effectiveness that is in-line with the concept isn't the end of the world. If I'm playing an Air Genasi wizard, then heck yes I'll make 'em an Elemental Savant. +1 LA and 2 missing caster levels be damned.

 

[mikebr99]

Argent Savant (at 1st level) gets Force Specialization. +2 competence bonus on attack rolls made with force spells and +1 per die to damage.

Sorry this is totally incomparable to gaining more spells and/or higher level spells known. Between getting, say, 8th level spells or this, i would gladly take 8th level spells. I am not saying it is not a nice class ability.......it makes orb of forces much more potent than they already are, but it cant be compared to spellcasting progression.

So, are you trying to say that the Elemental Savant and Argent Savant are underpowered PrC's or are you really hoping for all their abilities and full casting levels?

Mike

 

[Deset Gled]

I have to agree. I hope the WotC game designers take into account that classes or Prcs that don't give full spellcasting levels in regard to caster level checks to overcome spell resistance are useless in the high level game. ...
Poor game design in my opinion. If the designers are going to give a class spellcasting ability, they should at least have the presence of mind to make it useful at high level when it is most needed.

The flip side to this is that giving a caster a free power boost for taking a PrC is just as bad (if not worse).

IMO, what we really need is a mechanic besides giving up pure spellcasting progression for PrC bonuses. Something in between, like givning up a couple of spells per day per spell level. I suspect the reason that WotC did not use this type of mechanic is that it would have to be done on a class-by-class basis, as things would not match up well between wizards, socerers, and the wide variety of other casting classes.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Personally, I would rather fewer (or even NO) PrCls had full spellcaster progressions- at times, those that do almost seem like "Wizard+" and risk eclipsing the base class. This is especially true of those that combine spellcasting classes and give full progression in both.

Don't get me wrong- I'll still play a Mystic Theurge if its right for the PC in question- but I have absolutely no problem with playing classes without full progression.

 

[Victim]

Giving up two caster levels is okay, since then you can still get 9th level spells. It's better if the lost levels are backloaded though, or the class offers significant early benefits. While a 20th level character will be okay without two caster levels, being behind before that is rather painful.

 

[Evil Monkey]

Personally, I would rather fewer (or even NO) PrCls had full spellcaster progressions- at times, those that do almost seem like "Wizard+" and risk eclipsing the base class.

I agree with this 100%. I don't think ANY prestige class should give full spellcasting progression; otherwise, what would be the point of staying as a straight wizard, cleric, or what have you? It seems odd to me that a 10/10 wizard/PrC would be considered balanced with a lvl 20 wizard when the character with the PrC casts spells as a 20th lvl wizard, has all sorts of neato abilities, and only loses out on 2 bonus feats (which have to be metamagic/item creation, at that). Just doesn't seem fair, to me. If you want to make sure you can beat SR at high levels, take appropriate feats or stay as a single-classed caster.

IMC, any prestige class that grants more than one spellcasting level/every other level is reduced to 1/2 levels. Theurgic prestige classes are a bit tricker, though; the ones that don't grant any abilities other than spellcasting are OK (kinda), but the ones that grant spellcasting and other stuff are way too much, IMO. I have yet to come up with a solution for that that I like, though. Thankfully, my players have yet to take a prestige class like that, so I haven't been forced to come up with something.