PRCs that dont offer full spellcasting progression

[Bront]

I think a lot of the issue is this. What are you looking for? Power? Flavor? Both?

I'm going to roll this in with Manifestor Level in Psionics as well, because they're just as effected (The Psion, Wilder, and Psionic Warrior to an extent). If you want power, you need something in return. If you want flavor, you are likely a little more willing to compromise.

Remember, so you're short 1 9th level spell, is that realy earth shattering? How many of your concepts ever even get that high in level? Most buff spells are just as good being cast by a 15th level caster as they are by a 20th level caster, and if they're cast on a character than can do more with them than your average full blooded wizard, psion, sorcerer, or cleric, is that not making up for the drop in the power of the spells?

For the Wizards, Psions, and Sorcerers, there isn't much else to compromise on, since you can't realy drop their HD, saves, skills, or BAB anymore. Clerics at least have a higher HD, BAB, and a second good save to take away in addition to the caster level.

 

[Question]

Ah but its not always just 1 9th level slot.

It can mean the difference between 4th level spells, or no 4th level spells. Every spell level is a huge progression in terms of what the spellcaster can do.

If the campaign isnt going to get to 20th level or more, the non-full spellcasting progression classes are even less attractive.

Losing spellcasting levels at near 20th level isnt a bad deal. Losing it when you are low level is.

 

[Plane Sailing]

An alternative view that I could see working in a campaign is that PrC always give full progression and are better than straight wizard or sorcerer, so naturally every PC wants to get into one of the PrC... but each PrC is tied to an organisation or order that has entry requirements ("bring me a deck of many things!") and responsibilities ("the Order of the Star needs an emissary to the elder wilds, and we choose you").

I could happily run a campaign where RP requirements are used to balance a mechanical advantage like this. Not everyones cup of tea, sure. Not something you'd put in the general rules, sure. But I could really make that fly.

Cheers

 

[Bront]

Ah but its not always just 1 9th level slot.

It can mean the difference between 4th level spells, or no 4th level spells. Every spell level is a huge progression in terms of what the spellcaster can do.

If the campaign isnt going to get to 20th level or more, the non-full spellcasting progression classes are even less attractive.

Losing spellcasting levels at near 20th level isnt a bad deal. Losing it when you are low level is.

At some point, mechanics aren't everything, and if the abilities of the PrC make up for the lost spell level, you ultimately won't notice.

 

[Herobizkit]

Personally, I don't play a lot of wizards because I HATE the spell memorization bullcrap. I would rather have more bang for the buck in lower level spells than high-level spell slots, especially if you can cast them any time you want.

I mean, let's be honest... the massive choice of spells is the mage's bread and butter and makes him a highly useful team member, IF he has time to prepare. Given a broad list of spells, the mage can replace almost any party member AND do their job better than the one replaced, for a short while at least. With the Sorcerer, you can fill one or two focused roles for spellcasters, and perform your roles well, and often, AND at the drop of a hat, which is GREAT!

I don't know of very many PrC's that suit the Sorcerer, but I can see that losing out on caster levels could become a big deal for some. Me, I'd choose a PrC that makes up for what my job is lacking. Strap on the Arcane Warrior or whatever that sword-mage class is called. Now I can wear armor, cast spells, and whack you with something besides my shortspear.

Just my 0.02 CDN.

 

[glass]

Now I know it is not a PRC, but what about monk1 and asthetic mage?

[nitpick]I don't have CAdv yet, but I'm pretty sure its Ascetic Mage.[/nitpick]


glass.

 

[glass]

Or is the problem simply that the standard wiz/sorc classes have no class abilities going for them except spellcasting progression, so it seems like the PRCs are even better versions of the normal classes with added bonuses?

I'd say, you've hit the nail on the head, there. I hesitate to use the 'F-word', but hopefully this will be adressed some time down the line...


glass.

 

[satori01]

I would say it depends. If you are getting a bigger HD out of it and better saves, it might be worth it as long as you do not lose more than 3 levels. Likewise I think Evasion is probably worth a loss in spell casting level, just in terms of survivability, Arcane Trickster is a fine PRC .

It is rough, a warrior type basically just needs hit points, and enough bab to get them to 4 attacks. Feats, class powers, etc are just icing on the cake, give a 20th level NPC Warrior, PC like magic weapons, a 2 handed weapon and Power Attack and Great Cleave, and you have a viable character.

There is no magical BAB equivalent, and just getting an increase in caster level but no increase to spell casting progression, just does not cut it. At the very least level in a primary caster oriented PRC , that do not add to the spell casting progression should add in terms of caster level for level dependent effects and spell resistance.

Beyond the Druid and the Dread Necromancer, I would probably go the PRC route for most of the other primary casters. Beyond Advanced Learning there is no real reason to stay in the Warmage class, solely. Beguiler, due to the skill points issue is a little more compelling to stay in, so I might add that to the list or primary caster classes to stay w/ for 20 or so levels.

 

[IanB]

Of course they seem that way. That's because familiars suck and turning undead sucks. There's otherwise zero benefit to core classes (src, wiz, clr) (druids have some benefit, so I'll skip that) other than the spellcasting progression. Only the wiz has extra feats.

Thus, any PrC that offers full spellcasting progression would have to offer NOTHING to even be considered not overpowered when you compare it to core classes. But, is this a problem in PrC's or the core classes? There are numerous attempts at solutions, of course, but I have the opinion that many (full progression) PrCs are not overpowered, but that the core classes are underpowered and, quite frankly, suck. I would allow full progression on all but the most powerful of PrCs and only gimp a level on the main bonus acquisition level. As a player, I would not be able to stomach playing only a core class. If no full progression PrCs were allowed, I would simply not play a primary spellcaster.

Your contention is that clerics are weak (EDIT: removed druid, missed the aside about them)? Or are you only talking about wizards and sorcerers here? I have to say that doesn't match my experience with the wizard, and the sorcerer isn't exactly weak, just boring and inflexible. A little weak, sure, and that's largely due to the delayed access to higher level spells - but full progression prestige classes are still too good, even for the sorcerer, I think.

I tend to be of the opinion that prestige classing should be a minority choice for characters, though, not something everyone always does.