Precocious Apprentice

[kreynolds]

...but even a blind squirrel sometimes finds an acorn.

I laughed.

I also think in this case, CustServ is on the mark.

 

[Sejs]

The "broken" Precocious Theurge builds I'm referring to are ones like Human Wiz 1/ Druid 3/ MT 6/ Arcane Heirophant 10, which provides 9th-level wizard and druid spells, a powerful companion familiar, wild shape to 13th level (that's large and tiny I think?), and medium armored casting with no penalties. Oh, and don't forget Arcane Striking with 7th-level or so Wizard spells on full pouncing attacks in Large Wild Shape, flanking with your companion familiar, after the 8th- and 9th-level spells run out!

Yeah, a bit over-the-top. Of course, none of this is nearly as feasible without combining the multiple dual-progression prestige classes.

No wild shape, actually. As noted in Arcane Heirophant, if you didn't already possess the ability before entering the PrC it doesn't advance. So, cold comfort, but you need all of 5 levels of druid to rock the casbah.

 

[dirkformica]

That's somewhat debatable, Sejs, since the example character in the book is shown to have Wildshaping without having taken 5 levels of Druid to enter the class.

Edit: Oh, and if the example character (who, oddly, doesn't really qualify for AH) isn't sufficient evidence, the actual description of the Wildshape ability of the AH most certainly should since it specifically says, "For example, a character who is a 3rd-level wizard/3rd-level druid/4th-level arcane hierophant has the wild shape ability of a 7th-level druid."

 

[nogray]

Another way to shoot down the combo

While I disagree with the grammatical interpretation described by Nonlethal Force (since it could also exclude a single classed non-speciallist Wiz 3 (can only cast a single spell each day) with a 12 or 13 Int or a Sor 4 (only knows a single spell), if taken too literally and too grammatically), I still don't allow the Mystic Theurge to be accessed with Precocious Apprentice. I think it was Hypersmurf who first described this rather elegant bit of rules-reading:

The Precocious Apprentice feat states, "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above [the ability to maybe possibly cast your 2nd-level spell] but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would."

So your Wiz 1 (or Sor 1) takes the feat at 1st. He then takes 3 levels of (whatever divine casting class). This grants him the ability to cast 2nd-level spells, which triggers the above sentence. So your Wiz 1 has a 2nd-level spell slot, which can no longer be used to cast 2nd-level spells (since normally, a Wiz 1 can't cast 2nd-level spells). Thus, the prerequisites for Arcane Heirophant are no longer met. At least, that's my reading of it.

 

[Sejs]

That's somewhat debatable, Sejs, since the example character in the book is shown to have Wildshaping without having taken 5 levels of Druid to enter the class.

Edit: Oh, and if the example character (who, oddly, doesn't really qualify for AH) isn't sufficient evidence, the actual description of the Wildshape ability of the AH most certainly should since it specifically says, "For example, a character who is a 3rd-level wizard/3rd-level druid/4th-level arcane hierophant has the wild shape ability of a 7th-level druid."

Heh, of course the first sentence of the ability says "If you do not already possess the ability, you gain no new ability to wild shape".

Damn, talk about sloppy.

 

[Fifth Element]

I do not like that customer service answer. As far as I can tell they make up a houserule and then declare that any dungeon master who does not use their houserule is making up houserules.

Personally, I don't like all those house rules Wizards put into the PHB. You know, skill checks and Armour Class, that sort of thing.

But seriously, so what if they say DMs are making up house rules? DMs are supposed to make up house rules. They're not "wrong", if they work for your group.

(I have to say I agree with Wizards on this one.)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Heh, of course the first sentence of the ability says "If you do not already possess the ability, you gain no new ability to wild shape".

The way I've interpreted this is that the class adds effective druid levels for the purpose of Wildshape... so a Drd3/ArcHie2 is the equivalent of a Drd5 for the purpose of Wildshape, and can use the ability; but a Rgr10/ArcHie2 has nothing to add druid levels to for the purpose of Wildshape, since he has no class that can gain Wildshape at any level.

I think it's poorly worded, but it's the only way I've found to reconcile the "you gain no new ability" line with the examples given.

Effectively, it seems that the class considers a first level druid to have a latent Wildshape class feature that simply isn't active yet, rather than having no Wildshape class feature at all. Contrast this with the ranger, who does, indeed, have no Wildshape class feature at all.

-Hyp.

 

[RangerWickett]

Hi!

A friend of mine wants to play a Wizard/Archivist/Mystic Theurge in my upcoming War of the burning sky-campaign.
He came up with the idea to take precocious apprentice as his 1st level feat and this way qualify for the MT by taking Wiz1/Archivist 3.
Now another GM of mine told me, that precocious apprentice is not enough to qualify for a prc.

Can anybody point out why this is the case and, if possible, give me a link to an official ruling about it (faq)? I searched, but didn´t find anything.

Thanx in advance!

Ceska

Ceska, email me at ryanznock@gmail.com, and I can send you a copy of E.N. Publishing's "Secrets of Theurgy," a pdf devoted to making theurge-esque classes more interesting. As director of the War of the Burning Sky campaign saga, I fully endorse it.

In my opinion, using precocious apprentice is too good, since you lose 1 level and gain tons of spells. However, I've played a multiclass spellcaster shooting for a druid/wizard theurge-y class, and it sucked. Some middle ground helps.