Predictions of the d20/gaming Industry

[Ulrick]

Henry Ford was mentioned...thats a good thing.
Because he wanted prices for his autos to go down so that everybody could afford one. He wanted to "belt the earth in automobiles."

In almost any given market being run by various capitalistic principles, prices are supposed to go down. This is mostly attributed to competition.

Now, in the d20 gaming industry, there's plenty of competition--but why haven't prices gone down? Sure, at first products were relatively cheap so that people could get hooked. But since then there seems to be a steady increase.

Why aren't prices going down?


Ulrick

PS: By the way, great posts from everybody.

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

Why high prices are good

The reason I think higher prices are good for the consumer/industry, is that if gamers are forced to buy fewer products, then they'll have to choose what means the most to them. That increased selectivity translates to higher quality in the long run.

I think we'd all agree that if you were forced to buy one product a month, you'd be more selective than if you could buy 5 or 6 a month.

In the long run, that'll ensure that the successful products stay in print a long time, while the unsucessful ones get kicked out in a hurry.

Like I said, I have no sympathy for collectors who don't play, or people who buy RPG product as recreational reading. Those of us who actually play want more useful products designed for players, not crap designed for the "gamer" who only reads but doesn't actually play. Raising prices will help do that.

 

[Monte At Home]

Re: Re: RPG prices

as for monte's list, i recognized some names, colin mccomb and david cook most prominently, but some of those people are not in any way premier rpg people. they may have been friends of yours, monte, but some of them are no more or less talented than the current crop of writers.

Of course they're not more or less talented than current writers. But that's not what you said.

And besides, you're saying that they aren't premiere people because you haven't heard of them? The creators of Champions? Of Call of Cthulhu? Of Cyberpunk? Rolemaster? That's crazy. It's borderline offensive, in fact.

 

[Lizard]

Re: Re: RPG prices

cost to gamer = $90, gamer has 2 good products but sticker shock makes him think twice about Kalamr. Gaming industry just lost $25 because of ryand's "raise prices till people stop buying" plan.

explain to me again why you hope prices go up?

Or, possibly, the Electronics Boutique lost a sale of Heroes ofMight&Magic IV. Or the cineplex lost a movie date. Or the japanese restauraunt lost a dinner customer. Or a few less videos were rented. Or...

You are assuming there is a fixed "roleplaying" budget, as opposed to fixed *entertainment* budget.

Now ask yourself this -- if someone has 100 dollars to spend on entertainment, why shouldn't the roleplaying industry get as much of it as they can?

 

[Psion]

Henry Ford was mentioned...thats a good thing.
Because he wanted prices for his autos to go down so that everybody could afford one. He wanted to "belt the earth in automobiles."

In almost any given market being run by various capitalistic principles, prices are supposed to go down. This is mostly attributed to competition.

Now, in the d20 gaming industry, there's plenty of competition--but why haven't prices gone down? Sure, at first products were relatively cheap so that people could get hooked. But since then there seems to be a steady increase.

Why aren't prices going down?

If I may venture an answer on this:

I think the situation is a bit closer to the semiconductor industry. Last year was a fantastic year for consumers. Due to upstart AMD, who put good stuff on the market at a decent price, the price of the big boy, intel, got held down. Like I said, this is great for consumers, but it also doesn't make Intel execs or stockholders happy.

However, you saw a lot of chips with a wide variety of capabilities within dollars or even pennies of each other. That's because they still had manufacturing and distribution costs to deal with. The low end of the chip market got to where they really couldn't get any cheaper.

I think that prices are coming up in the game industry, but really it is at the point where they really can't get a whole lot cheaper. Competition is a factor in any indusrty, but so are production costs.

(Funny, on the RPGnet version of this argument, I was demonstrating the other side of this coin...)

 

[Psion]

Re: Why high prices are good

The reason I think higher prices are good for the consumer/industry, is that if gamers are forced to buy fewer products,

Okay, time to jump to the other side of the fence

(jump)
(engage speculation)

I'm not so sure I agree. I think it is reasonable to increase the margins some. However, if you jack up the prices too high such that there is a significant reaction, less people buy, there is unsold invetory, and interest goes down, and the companies get fewer orders of their future products. And how do companies compensate for that? Jack up the prices even more. Then you get into the condition where they are much more luxury items than they are now, and more people will do without.

Not that I think that will happen in the d20 climate. It's simply too competitive; someone gets crazy with price hikes, someone else is going to be there to provide the product cheaper. But it could cause the loss of some good companies.

 

[rounser]

I did get a false claim from Psion and Rounser that 3e PHB sold 3 million copies.

No you didn't. Only one of us named a figure, and it wasn't me.

But it is just plain naive to blindly underestimate a market, simply because you do not like it.

I don't appreciate being called "naive" and "blind" when you don't even bother to check your own biases - maybe the media hype surrounding online gaming has coloured your perceptions just as it did mine.

Remember, I made the same mistake as you in the past in assuming (naturally) that online gaming was bigger the P&P gaming. Ryan corrected me, I was surprised, and rethought my assumptions because I took him at his word.

I agreed with you that it is surprising that there are indications that P&P gaming is bigger than MMORPG gaming, whereas you are attempting to paint me as some sort of bigot with a bias against online gaming. Thanks a lot.

Go check this thread and my enthusiasm for NWN, then consider - "Is rounser really likely to be biased against online gaming, or in fact almost the exact opposite?"

 

[hong]

A wise man once remarked that the rational person changes themselves to match their environment, while the irrational person expects the environment to change to suit their tastes. Thus, all progress is derived from the actions of irrational people.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw

Personally, I just think it's ironic how Shaw, famous for being a socialist, has been dragged into a debate about capitalistic behaviour.

 

[JohnNephew]

and actually, it comes off sounding kind of arrogent. if you guys don't like the money in the RPG industry then you can always get another job!

(rest snipped)

I love my job, and there have been years I've been willing to take home poverty level wages because of that -- but let's not talk about me (or people like Ryan Dancey, Peter Adkison, Richard Garfield or other well-known people who have done exceptionally well financially in the game biz). Let's talk about my employees. Why don't you tell all of THEM that they can get go another job if they don't like getting paid their modest pittance for packing boxes in the warehouse and answering customer e-mails all day long -- hey, let's admit it, they COULD get another job and make more money as an assistant manager down the street at Burger King.

Keep in mind, bud, MOST people in the game industry neither design nor play games on company time -- and game prices affect whether THOSE people can afford to raise a family or buy new clothes now and then.

Think about them -- the people whose actual calloused hands BROUGHT the product to you, by unloading trucks, assembling games, packing boxes, creating and tracking paperwork, maintaining crashed computers, standing in line at the post office. The supporting staff of game manufacturers, distributors, and retailers. You want to complain about having to spend another $2 or something on a module, because those bums are lucky to have a job they enjoy "playing games"? They probably work harder than you do, doing more varied and challenging work, for significantly less money.

One of the perpetual problems this industry faces is the loss of talent. You already know about the artists and designers who move on to other things. You probably don't know about the many others whose invisible sweat keeps the games magically appearing on the shelves of your FLGS. You may not know who these people are or what they do, but the fact that generations of them continually have to leave gaming, when real-world demands require them to make a living wage -- taking their knowledge and experience and ideas with them -- helps keep tabletop games in a business ghetto.

Sorry if I seem a little touchy, but I found the tone and content of your message rather insulting and, dare I say, arrogant.

 

[King_Stannis]

Re: Re: Re: RPG prices

Of course they're not more or less talented than current writers. But that's not what you said.

And besides, you're saying that they aren't premiere people because you haven't heard of them? The creators of Champions? Of Call of Cthulhu? Of Cyberpunk? Rolemaster? That's crazy. It's borderline offensive, in fact.

are we 100% sure that EVERYONE on that list is not in the gaming field because they tried and tried, but just couldn't make a living at it? are you sure that burnout wasn't a reason, perhaps in a few cases?

when it comes down to it, you can say that almost everyone who leaves a job does so because of the money. if pizza hut paid me a salary of $1 million a year, you better believe i'd be making pies.

and no, i dont' know who the creators of cyberpunk and rolemaster were. i never played those games, so i'm sorry to offend you, monte. i do know who sandy peterson is, but considering CoC has survived and thrived for 20+ years, i was assuming he might have gotten out for other reasons than low pay. perhaps i'm wrong.

in any respect, it was ryan d. who said that talent is walking out because of the crappy pay. if that's the case, why do we have the clark petersons and fiery dragon boys? why do we have gary gygax?

asking us to overpay so some RPG freelancer can have a cool job and make as much money as me is what's really offensive, actually. reality check: unless your name is steven king, you aren't getting rich by putting pen to paper.

i must say that i am a little disgusted by what little regard some people in the rpg industry have of their consumer. the only solace is the fact that the D20 industry is, from what i can tell, not a cartel. though i'm sure that displeases some of you to no end.

and what's really funny is listening to consumers trying to explain how high prices are actually good for everyone. oy vay. i need to go to bed.