Predictions of the d20/gaming Industry

[JohnNephew]

as far as talent drain, i don't think that's the case. name one premier RPG talent that walked away full time to pursue other things?

Ken Rolston
Zeb Cook
Aaron Allston
Mike Stackpole
Greg Costikyan
Greg Gordon
Derek Pearcy
Mike Pondsmith (yes, he's still doing R. Tal, but it went from full-time to spare-time as he works primarily at Microsoft as a computer game designer)
John Wick (not that I want to start a flame war about The Wick here or anything, but he's one of the latest to be lured to a full-salary-and-benefits line of work in computer game land)

How is that for a start?

Why is it OK for so many of these guys to get paid so much better to "play games" for a job in the computer end, but not in pen-and-paper? Is PNP just not good enough?

These are just designers (though a couple did graphic design as well as writing). How about all the talented people in business and operations that have vanished? Jill Lucas, long-time president of FASA, for example. Dana Blankenship, who during her tenure at SJG was probably one of the best sales reps/business managers this business has ever known.

I fear you simply know not what you are talking about, and probably have no idea of the continuous talent drain that this industry has suffered for decades. And you have no idea of what we are ALL missing because we've lost those people and the things they might have done.

 

[King_Stannis]

I love my job, and there have been years I've been willing to take home poverty level wages because of that -- but let's not talk about me (or people like Ryan Dancey, Peter Adkison, Richard Garfield or other well-known people who have done exceptionally well financially in the game biz). Let's talk about my employees. Why don't you tell all of THEM that they can get go another job if they don't like getting paid their modest pittance for packing boxes in the warehouse and answering customer e-mails all day long -- hey, let's admit it, they COULD get another job and make more money as an assistant manager down the street at Burger King.

Keep in mind, bud, MOST people in the game industry neither design nor play games on company time -- and game prices affect whether THOSE people can afford to raise a family or buy new clothes now and then.

Think about them -- the people whose actual calloused hands BROUGHT the product to you, by unloading trucks, assembling games, packing boxes, creating and tracking paperwork, maintaining crashed computers, standing in line at the post office. The supporting staff of game manufacturers, distributors, and retailers. You want to complain about having to spend another $2 or something on a module, because those bums are lucky to have a job they enjoy "playing games"? They probably work harder than you do, doing more varied and challenging work, for significantly less money.

One of the perpetual problems this industry faces is the loss of talent. You already know about the artists and designers who move on to other things. You probably don't know about the many others whose invisible sweat keeps the games magically appearing on the shelves of your FLGS. You may not know who these people are or what they do, but the fact that generations of them continually have to leave gaming, when real-world demands require them to make a living wage -- taking their knowledge and experience and ideas with them -- helps keep tabletop games in a business ghetto.

Sorry if I seem a little touchy, but I found the tone and content of your message rather insulting and, dare I say, arrogant.

do you think about the 12 year old chinese girl who assembles your shirts in a sweatshop under what we would call barbaric conditions? of course you don't. so why the hell do i have to worry about your employees? when i plunk down my hard earned money for the amount on the back of the atlas product (something i've done several times), we're even, sir. my responsibility to you ends right there. if you want to charge more for your product, go right ahead. but don't think that i'm going to automatically go along with it.

and if you have a problem with that, take it up with adam smith.

 

[Fiery James]

Re: Re: Re: Re: RPG prices

in any respect, it was ryan d. who said that talent is walking out because of the crappy pay. if that's the case, why do we have the clark petersons and fiery dragon boys?

While I totally appreciate the fact that I'm seen as a person with talent, I've got to say that FDP is far closer to "crushing debt" than to "fun-loving millionaires".

I don't want to say we're bailing on RPGs or anything - but all of us have fulltime jobs and work nights and weekends on FDP - for little or no compensation. While I'm going to fight to stay in the industry as long as I possibly can, I can certainly envision several scenarios that aren't far off that would cause me to give it up.

- James

 

[JohnNephew]

When there is a Seafarer's Handbook, Seas of Blood, and Broadsides on the shelf, if one of those raises their price, it makes the choice a bit easier.

Respectfully, I must suggest that the business end of this is considerably more complex than you might think.

One aspect of it is the impact of marginal price increases on the bottom line. For example, I calculated last year that if I had increased the price of our RUNE RPG from $27.95 (where I way underpriced it) to $35 (where I should have priced it, the price where the equal size and format Feng Shui hardcover reprint was being set a month later), our potential profit on the book would have DOUBLED. A 25% price increase DOUBLED the money the publisher takes home.

This means that a price-raising publisher can still come out significantly ahead even if the number of units sold drops.

Moreover, the savvy publisher will parlay some of that doubled profit into an edge over the competition -- higher production values, more advertising, etc.

It's also complicated by the retailer and distributor. Frankly, all else being equal, they'd rather sell you a $20 book instead of a $10 book. Smarter retailers may not bother restocking the cheaper options (or even ordering them in the first place), especially if they feel the other book has an edge in quality. If you're going to have one seafaring book on your shelf, why not make it the one that occupies the same amount of space but makes you a few bucks more each time that it turns? The one that people come in asking for because they saw the ads in a magazine?

There's a lot more decision-making affecting the market than an abstract consumer in front of an abstract game store shelf full of all the options.

 

[King_Stannis]

....I fear you simply know not what you are talking about, and probably have no idea of the continuous talent drain that this industry has suffered for decades. And you have no idea of what we are ALL missing because we've lost those people and the things they might have done.

and the greatest president of the united states died in a car accident at age 5? the scientist who discovered a cure for cancer decided to join a rock band instead? what's your point? do you think the rpg industry is any different than any other industry? people move from job to job all of the time. your opinion that we are better off with those people that without them is your own.

i might not know what i'm missing because of the talent drain. but i sure as hell know what i got....clark peterson, gary gygax, fiery dragon to name a few. and i didn't have them a few years ago.

 

[Ulrick]

(Cringes slightly when reading some of the posts)

I'm uncertain if its my place or a moderator's place to post this: So I apologize for stepping on anybody's toes.

I understood when I started this thread that a variety of viewpoints would be thrown together, and not all would be compatible.

But please lets not degenerate into a flamewar. I know it hasn't gotten that point. Yet I may be seeing the seeds being planted.

I started this thread in hopes of overcoming ignorance so that everybody can benefit. So that a clearer picture of what's happening in the industry can be understood.

Insults in arguements only strengthens the opposing arguer's arguements, and makes them more closeminded.

I don't wish to sound bossy or authoritarian, and I apologize if I do.

I personally don't want this thread shut down. I've read every single post, and most have provided myself and hopefully others with new perspectives and ideas.

Thanks,
Ulrick

 

[coyote6]

and the greatest president of the united states died in a car accident at age 5?

I'm not sure, but I don't think dragging in non-sequitors is a very effective way of making your point. At least, it didn't work for me.

i might not know what i'm missing because of the talent drain. but i sure as hell know what i got....clark peterson, gary gygax, fiery dragon to name a few. and i didn't have them a few years ago.

Did you read Fiery James' reply? Would you like to keep what you've got? Or just "enjoy 'em while ya got 'em", and wait for the next talented bunch of sap- err, creators to come along.

 

[JohnNephew]

Now, in the d20 gaming industry, there's plenty of competition--but why haven't prices gone down? Sure, at first products were relatively cheap so that people could get hooked. But since then there seems to be a steady increase.

Why aren't prices going down?

Brief and somewhat oversimplified answer: Two things are increasing costs for manufacturers.

1. Decreasing unit sales means higher per-unit manufacturing costs. The number of d20 releases on the market means that each one sells fewer copies. To profit, you have to charge more per unit.

2. Increasing production values. To avoid competing on price/as commodity in the low end of the market, companies are finding ways to add value, which generally means increasing costs. ("Adding value" may involve advertising, web support, fancier production values, "name" writers, and much more.)

You could see these factors in play early on with the mini-modules. AEG priced them low, then FFG did their L&L series with a little added value (color maps in the middle) and a higher price point. The calculation was, I think, if you're gonna buy something, why not spend a little more and make it really nice?

At some point these things get taken to extremes (I don't foresee creating and selling just one hand-illuminated copy of a module on vellum for $10,000 or something), but for the moment they are the main pressures I see on pricing in the market.

 

[King_Stannis]

Did you read Fiery James' reply? Would you like to keep what you've got? Or just "enjoy 'em while ya got 'em", and wait for the next talented bunch of sap- err, creators to come along.

what is it, exactly, that you would want me to do? should i mail an extra $10 up to toronto? i already buy their products, and they're fairly priced. if they raise that price, all's i can say is that i'll weigh the value versus the cost. if it's a buck or two, i could probably live with it. if it's $5, i'd really think hard.

 

[King_Stannis]

I'm not sure, but I don't think dragging in non-sequitors is a very effective way of making your point. At least, it didn't work for me.

then johnnephew's original comment which prompted my own must not have worked for you, either....

"And you have no idea of what we are ALL missing because we've lost those people and the things they might have done. "