Predictions of the d20/gaming Industry

[Erik Mona]

>>>
well, if erik cares, then he is one of the few. i'm willing to bet that he, like just about everyone else, has gone through the drive thru at midnight without contemplating the socio-economic effect of a .99 hamburger.
>>>

The difference, as I see it, is that Pimply-Faced Teen (tm) could be replaced by an identical counter jockey and my crap MacDonalds hamburger is going to taste pretty much the same as it did three years ago. (In general, I don't eat fast food because it's both bad for you and unappealing. I'll gladly pay two dollars more for, say, a Fudruckers hamburger, and if that extra money keeps Fudruckers around longer, I'm happy to pay it.)

It occurs to me, at this stage, that John Nephew is from Minnesota (where I grew up) and is probably still reading this thread. If you're into hamburgers, John, get thee to the Lion's Tap in Eden Prairie. It's worth the drive, I assure you.

Anyway, to name three designers I respect, if Chris Pramas, Monte Cook, or Bruce Cordell leave the industry for greener pastures, there's certainly no assurance that the game products that come out from their "replacements" will be any good at all. They might be better, sure, but I already know I like the stuff that Chris, Monte, and Bruce put out. If they abandon the industry, I KNOW I'll be missing out on ideas from three people who inspire me and add to the quality of my game experience.

Let's put it in another perspective that might make more sense to people here. I'm currently the editor of the Living Greyhawk Journal (now in Dragon Magazine), which is really the only "official" outlet for Greyhawk material that pays more than casual attention to the 20-year history of the campaign setting.

Totally aside from whether or not I'm any good as a game designer or editor, I think you'd find little argument that I have a certain expertise in the World of Greyhawk campaign setting. A lot of Greyhawk fans value continuity. If I leave the industry because I can't make rent and could fairly easily get a better job, there's no guarantee that the guy who comes in after me will know his stuff anywhere near as well as I do. That might very well lead to a vibrant, bold new direction for the campaign setting. It also might lead to rampant continuity errors and design that's even less inspired than mine. I can easily see how some Greyhawk fans might not want that to happen.

As another example: If you like ThunderWorld, a campaign setting published by John Jacob Jingleheimer-Schmidt at Smedly Productions (a tiny more or less one-man 2d0 outfit) it stands to reason you'd probably appreciate it if J-Schmidt could continue to produce ThunderWorld products. But he's probably making a pittance, and is doing it out of love for the hobby. If he can't make money at it, eventually ThunderWorld is going to go away, probably forever. Is that good? I don't think so, no. But that's the free market. If J-Schmidt can't survive at the price point and profit margins of his products, he's going to do something else. If he can stay in the game, providing you with all the ThunderWorld products you appreciate for a modest increase you're willing to pay, he might survive. If you're not willing to pay that extra dollar (or whatever), he's done for.

That's my take, anyway.

--Erik

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I for one can attest to the fact that my 3e Players Handbook is in shambles, the binding has come apart, and it is time for me to buy another one. But, at $20, that's okay. I do think there may be a binding issue there with recent releases (but then, I also agree with RyanD that the market will accept higher prices. $39.95 should move to $49.95, and $19.95 should move to $24.95, for all WOTC and higher profile products except the core rulebooks, which are the lure for the industry, and the backbone of the d20 license).

Same situation here, except the MM is in worst shape. The PBH's binding is cracking and so is the DMG. The Manual of the Planes isn't much better but it doesn't get used as much. To be honest I'm going to check the Deities & Demigods book at the store, and if the binding is just as ty as the binding on the other books I'll wait and download it when I find a .pdf of it. I can't see paying over 30 bucks for a book that I don't think will last a year under heavy use. These books are as bad as the Unearthed Arcana.

 

[JohnNephew]

Same situation here, except the MM is in worst shape. The PBH's binding is cracking and so is the DMG. The Manual of the Planes isn't much better but it doesn't get used as much. To be honest I'm going to check the Deities & Demigods book at the store, and if the binding is just as ty as the binding on the other books I'll wait and download it when I find a .pdf of it. I can't see paying over 30 bucks for a book that I don't think will last a year under heavy use. These books are as bad as the Unearthed Arcana.

Are you for real?

You have unrealistic expectations of both price and durability for books. Given how well our office copies have held up, under the abuse we've given them, I'd guess that you don't treat your books very well. Dude, $30 for a hardcover with B&W interior is a STEAL, let alone the production quality of the core WotC books. What do you expect, titanium-alloy pages and laser-etched words and pictures that will survive a thermonuclear blast?

Go buy a coffee table/reference book and haul it around to all your gaming and open and bend and mash and balance sodas on it and everything else for a few months, all the same treatment you give your D&D books -- tell me how it holds up. And then compare price tags. (I haven't looked lately, but when I bought a copy of the ATLAS OF THE CRUSADES in the early '90s I seem to remember paying $45 then -- and well worth the price, I should add -- and its size/format is not much different than the core D&D books today.)

AND you're talking about just going and getting a free pirate download if you don't get what you want?! That scores big sympathy points from me. Why not advocate shoplifting if you don't think your local store gives you a big discount like you want?

If THIS customer is king, it's time to give Robespierre a call...

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I love books, and take care of them. My copies of the core books have received good, careful treatment, and even they are starting to pull apart. Others have been complaining about the same thing since shortly after the release of those books. So it's not isolated instances of people manhandling the books.

As I said above, one of the big counterarguments regarding protests that the books are too expensive is that they're worth it because they last. 2 years seems an unreasonably short amount of time for a hardback to last before it comes apart.

 

[The Onion Knight]

I have a question for the game publishers out there

Can you save the consumer money on the product by using different materials? For example a trade paperback version of the D&D rulebooks for $10 dollars less at counter?

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Are you for real?

You have unrealistic expectations of both price and durability for books. Given how well our office copies have held up, under the abuse we've given them, I'd guess that you don't treat your books very well. Dude, $30 for a hardcover with B&W interior is a STEAL, let alone the production quality of the core WotC books. What do you expect, titanium-alloy pages and laser-etched words and pictures that will survive a thermonuclear blast?

Go buy a coffee table/reference book and haul it around to all your gaming and open and bend and mash and balance sodas on it and everything else for a few months, all the same treatment you give your D&D books -- tell me how it holds up. And then compare price tags. (I haven't looked lately, but when I bought a copy of the ATLAS OF THE CRUSADES in the early '90s I seem to remember paying $45 then -- and well worth the price, I should add -- and its size/format is not much different than the core D&D books today.)

AND you're talking about just going and getting a free pirate download if you don't get what you want?! That scores big sympathy points from me. Why not advocate shoplifting if you don't think your local store gives you a big discount like you want?

If THIS customer is king, it's time to give Robespierre a call...

I didn't know that they made the old books out of metal. Hmm maybe that's why the old DMG is heavy. I have put other game books through YEARS of abuse, especially when I didn't treat my stuff with any respect. Hell I'm afraid to lay the PHB down on the table opened up with all the cracking that the spine does. Hell several pages look like they could fall out. The production quality for the WOTC books is great if flashy artwork is more important that functionality. I don't like having one class having it's advancment table on the next page in the middle of the text for a different class. I don't like the monsters not all having illustrations. The info inside the books is solid, but the packaging leaves a lot to be desired. And no I don't want to steal a copy of it. I want it to be a book that I can open and game with in ten years. I can do that with my 1e stuff. All I want is a book that will last. Not one that will fall apart in a year so I can buy a new 50 dollar copy. If WOTC thinks that sucks fine, make better product and I'll have more respect for it. As it is I don't think the core books were very well made in a physical sence and if I knew they were going to be in this bad of shape, binding wise, in six months I would have just found a 1e PHB on EBay and started up a game with my 25 year old books that are in better shape than my six month old books.

 

[jasamcarl]

ok, King....

No, you do not know in what POLICIES their interest lies, because you have ZERO EVIDENCE, empirical or otherwise are which to determine either their cost structures or the reservatoin price to which they would be compared.

The latter point was a question to those who would actually KNOW. Unlike you, i come with a somewhat open mind, abeit slanted towards the party with the knowledge; in other words, not you. No polemic intended. Their are network effects at work that could easily make such a general price increase beneficial to most publishers, i.e. those with any real staying power to begin with...

 

[Keith_Strohm]

I love books, and take care of them. My copies of the core books have received good, careful treatment, and even they are starting to pull apart. Others have been complaining about the same thing since shortly after the release of those books. So it's not isolated instances of people manhandling the books.

As I said above, one of the big counterarguments regarding protests that the books are too expensive is that they're worth it because they last. 2 years seems an unreasonably short amount of time for a hardback to last before it comes apart.

I have heard this complaint from a few D&D consumers, and while I don't dispute that your book is falling apart, I will refute the belief that a large percentage of people's books are falling apart because of cheap binding.

In fact, I fought a fairly political battle inside WOTC with both the COO and the SVP of Production to pay for a much more expensive binding on those books--specifically because a "predominant" (in quotes because I really only have anecdotal info on this) complaint about 2nd Edition books was the cheap binding. I wanted to avoid as much as I could the possibility of that the Core Books could be perceived as "shoddy". In fact, I was told by production at WOTC that the cheaper substitute binding they wanted to place on the books was as strong as the one I wanted. I asked for a production sample and then spent two hours with the book. At the end of the two hours, the binding split completely.

I won that battle.

Is it possible that, like in any production run, a percentage of the total print run of books had incorrectly manufactured or substandard binding? Absolutely. However, I highly doubt (but I am, I suppose, open to the possibility) that an inordinate number of faulty bindings were produced.

Now, I have no idea exactly why your binding is coming apart. Keep in mind that the "spine" (piece of thick wood that runs down the center of the binding) of the book is designed to separate from the glued pages when opened in order to give the book flexibility. If that is what you're seeing (and I really have no idea if that's the case), then it really isn't broken. Again, I'm not saying that this is what is happening with yours, but I suspect that a large percentage of the "broken" bindings people are reporting are not, in fact broken.

Just a friendly public service message.

Keith Strohm
Director of Communications
Sabertooth Games

Check out the new Warhammer 40K CCG at www.sabertoothgames.com

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I'm not talking about the spine cracking away from the page binding. I'm talking about the pages coming away from the binding. And since I've read a lot of posts here and elsewhere about people having the same problem I'm sure it's not a one off deal. I never bought anything from GW, other than mini's, after my copy of the original Warhammer 40k fell apart the same way. If that's the best they can do they can lose my money...At least my old copy of Warhammer from 84 is in great shape, but it's not a hard bound book.

 

[Erik Mona]

I use my D&D books every single day. I do keep pretty good care of them, but I take them home from work, balance food on them occasionally, and work with them, on average, five or six hours a day.

They're in pretty good condition. I've never even seen a page of a 3e book come loose from the binding. Not even at conventions.

That's not to say it doesn't happen--I'm sure it does. I'm just surprised to hear that folks think it's a serious problem, because I've personally never witnessed it.

Ask me again in ten years and that'll probably change, but then, two dollars a year isn't a bad price for something I'll have used that much.

--Erik