Predictions of the d20/gaming Industry

[Keith_Strohm]

I'm not talking about the spine cracking away from the page binding. I'm talking about the pages coming away from the binding. And since I've read a lot of posts here and elsewhere about people having the same problem I'm sure it's not a one off deal. I never bought anything from GW, other than mini's, after my copy of the original Warhammer 40k fell apart the same way. If that's the best they can do they can lose my money...At least my old copy of Warhammer from 84 is in great shape, but it's not a hard bound book.

I am not suggesting that your problem is a one off deal, but I am questioning whether there is a problem beyond the statistical "norm" of faulty product. It is very difficult to extrapolate a correct conclusion from anecdotal information. It's one of the big issues in the industry and even affects (to stay relatively on topic) the industry's perception of pricing. "I have read lots of posts that say x" and "all my friends have had y experience" while interesting in the microcosm of a particular group of customers is not necessarily an indicator of a real trend. When we launched D&D, Third Edition we had to unlearn and discard much industry "wisdom" that had accreted over twenty five years. The actual data proved much of the anecdotal conclusions that became accepted industry practice wrong.

I'm not closed to the possibility that there is a real problematic trend, but I am doubtful. I also can't vouch for the quality of any core book binding afdter the 2nd reprint of PH's as they did not happen on my watch. Not that there is a reason to suspect them of going with a cheaper material, but I can not say with absolute conviction that they didn't.


Not sure why you mentioned the Warhammer stuff (except possibly because of my sig); were you looking for a response to that part of your post?

Keith Strohm
Director of Communication
Sabertooth Games

Check out the Warhammer 40K CCG at www.sabertoothgames.com

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Keith!

For the record I have had no binding trouble with any of the Core Rulebooks (or any 3rd Ed. products) though I would add that the Sword & Sorcery hardbacks seem more solidly put together - perhaps thats just the thicker paper though?

In fact, I fought a fairly political battle inside WOTC with both the COO and the SVP of Production to pay for a much more expensive binding on those books--specifically because a "predominant" (in quotes because I really only have anecdotal info on this) complaint about 2nd Edition books was the cheap binding.

Some of those 2nd Ed. books were a disgrace. In particular some of the Complete 'Class' Handbooks and things like Monster Mythology looked like they had been bound by an epileptic!

 

[King_Stannis]

I use my D&D books every single day. I do keep pretty good care of them, but I take them home from work, balance food on them occasionally, and work with them, on average, five or six hours a day.

They're in pretty good condition. I've never even seen a page of a 3e book come loose from the binding. Not even at conventions.

That's not to say it doesn't happen--I'm sure it does. I'm just surprised to hear that folks think it's a serious problem, because I've personally never witnessed it.

Ask me again in ten years and that'll probably change, but then, two dollars a year isn't a bad price for something I'll have used that much.

--Erik

my phb is starting to show signs that the binding will crap out soon. i don't use it too much, so i think there might have been a problem in that area. still, i've heard that you can get a replacement from WotC if you give them the old one.

all in all, though, for $20 those books were a steal. that's right, i fully admit the phb was severely UNDERpriced!

now there's a can of worms for you! does anyone else think that it's ironic that the most important rpg products of the last 10 years were purposely underpriced (perhaps setting a standard in the process) by the man who now thinks the whole market is underpriced? i don't know, ryan - perhaps you reap what you sow

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Not sure why you mentioned the Warhammer stuff (except possibly because of my sig); were you looking for a response to that part of your post?

Keith Strohm
Director of Communication
Sabertooth Games

Check out the Warhammer 40K CCG at www.sabertoothgames.com

I was just making a comparison to my experiences with Games Workshop and how it stopped me from supporting thier games for a long time. I hope I don't have a same problem with WOTC. The books are still together, but they don't look like they will be for too much longer.

One thing I noticed on my old AD&D book was that the binding seemed deeper. the spine was deeper and the pages or binding has never come loose, except on the Unearthed Arcana.

 

[King_Stannis]

Anyway, to name three designers I respect, if Chris Pramas, Monte Cook, or Bruce Cordell leave the industry for greener pastures, there's certainly no assurance that the game products that come out from their "replacements" will be any good at all. They might be better, sure, but I already know I like the stuff that Chris, Monte, and Bruce put out. If they abandon the industry, I KNOW I'll be missing out on ideas from three people who inspire me and add to the quality of my game experience....


As another example: If you like ThunderWorld, a campaign setting published by John Jacob Jingleheimer-Schmidt at Smedly Productions (a tiny more or less one-man 2d0 outfit) it stands to reason you'd probably appreciate it if J-Schmidt could continue to produce ThunderWorld products. But he's probably making a pittance, and is doing it out of love for the hobby. If he can't make money at it, eventually ThunderWorld is going to go away, probably forever. Is that good? I don't think so, no. But that's the free market. If J-Schmidt can't survive at the price point and profit margins of his products, he's going to do something else. If he can stay in the game, providing you with all the ThunderWorld products you appreciate for a modest increase you're willing to pay, he might survive. If you're not willing to pay that extra dollar (or whatever), he's done for.

That's my take, anyway.

--Erik

i agree about the industry being stronger with bruce, chris and monte of course. i would hope that they've built up such a reputation that they, of anyone, can earn a comfortable living at it.

but one way to look at it is this: when those 3 broke into the industry, chances are they replaced someone who left the industry. probably someone with ultimately inferior talent. so you never know. but i would consider them the premier talents, and teh industry would probably suffer for a while if any of them packed up and left.

as for the thunderworld example, i couldn't agree more... other than to say that i might have no knowledge how close thunderhead is to bankruptcy when i buy their latest product. and, as cutthroat as it is, if their latest product stinks AND costs more money, no sale. i'll use my $10, $20 or $30 for something else - or just save it. i suppose i could really muck up this argument by bringing the time-value of money factor into it. that $20 you spent on a substandard product could be worth thousands 25 years down the road!

 

[Ranger REG]

by last count i had spendt well over $800 on D20 stuff alone. please forgive me for wanting to save a little of my money.

Then find an inexpensive hobby ... like fishing. At least you can put food on your table.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

I have a question for the game publishers out there

Can you save the consumer money on the product by using different materials? For example a trade paperback version of the D&D rulebooks for $10 dollars less at counter?

I'm sure some publishers do use alternate materials, especially when it comes to the glue and inks. I don't know about you, however, but I'm more than a little tired of buying books that have to be left on the window sill for a week because they stink so bad when opened due to such cost cutting ...

 

[Waylander the Slayer]

Simple Solutions

I love the fact that we in the RPG world have all the time to post 6000 times yet cant get 2 or 3 new people to get into the game.

Instead of wasting time by arguing about price point, both consumers (who presumably love the game and worry about their past time and hobby) and the D20 companies might want to try increasing the market size.

Try and get 1 new person into the game a month; the collective effort might keep the prices down and help Monte buy the winnabago that he so dearly wants.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Re: Simple Solutions

I love the fact that we in the RPG world have all the time to post 6000 times yet cant get 2 or 3 new people to get into the game.

Instead of wasting time by arguing about price point, both consumers (who presumably love the game and worry about their past time and hobby) and the D20 companies might want to try increasing the market size.

Try and get 1 new person into the game a month; the collective effort might keep the prices down and help Monte buy the winnabago that he so dearly wants.

It's hard to get them past the sticker shock.

 

[Ulrick]

Bump!
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Bump!
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Bump!
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Bump!
Hier kommt die Sonne!

Ulrick