D&D 4E Presentation vs design... vs philosophy

[Garthanos]

Yeah, they certainly claim that. Doesn’t really hold up in an analysis of the game’s systems, but that’s what they claimed.

Zero clues about what my characters skills might accomplish at any given level... yup they so completely did not pay equal attention to all arenas. That is called giving lip service.

 

[Oofta]

For me that reads as gamers want it easier to build a crippled character so someone can show off their system mastery?

Define "crippled". Is a PC that ignores DPR and focuses on utility and non-combat options crippled in an RP heavy campaign? Is someone that takes Keen Mind making a bad choice if there's a lot of investigation and glancing at something allows them to recall details that were not important at the time making a bad choice?

With 5E we have more freedom to build different styles of characters. Whether I want to build towards Sherlock Holmes, The Gray Mouser or Merlin I feel like I have more options than I did in 4E.

Which goes back to a philosophy and encompasses more than just PC options, but also campaign tone and style. I feel like 5E is much more flexible in presentation and implementation of different fantasy character archetypes, although of course it can't cover them all.

 

[Garthanos]

Define "crippled". Is a PC that ignores DPR and focuses on utility and non-combat options crippled in an RP heavy campaign?

I didnt coin/choose the word I was rephrasing using his and do tell me about the non-caster ability to perform in that campaign. You have to be a spell caster get any reliable utility.

 

[FrogReaver]

I didnt coin/choose the word I was rephrasing using his and do tell me about the non-caster ability to perform in that campaign. You have to be a spell caster get any reliable utility.

Not sure what spellcaster utility superiority vs martials has to do with anything?

 

[Garthanos]

I feel like 5E is much more flexible in presentation and implementation of different fantasy character archetypes, although of course it can't cover them all.

I cannot build half my 4e characters without using third party products and next to none from the just the 5e phb I call foul

 

[FrogReaver]

I cannot build half my 4e characters without using third party products and next to none from the just the 5e phb I call foul

4e had like 10,000 splat books. 5e has maybe 2 or 3 books worth of splat?

It's not the system that's the issue there - it's the release rate and refusal to release any new classes.

 

[Charlaquin]

Don't make your sad face or whatever that is at me.

It’s a disapproving face - a lighthearted expression of mock-exhasperation. You’ll note I also give your post a “laugh” reaction because I genuinely found the exchange quite comical. Sorry I didn’t make that clearer.

Look, 4e is a game. One I don't enjoy. One I don't think "feels" enough like the game its purporting to be. If my saying that makes you feel bad? Makes you feel invalidated?? Then you should probably go talk to a shrink about it as your attaching waaay too much importance to my opinion of a game.

My dude, you saying 4e doesn’t feel like D&D to you doesn’t make me feel bad. It does implicitly invalidate my view of what D&D feels like, along with that of other folks who think it feels like D&D. Your choice to say that it doesn’t feel like D&D instead of that you don’t like the way it feels or that it doesn’t feel like what you prefer out of D&D is likely to cause friction in conversation with people who like 4e. It’s also factually inaccurate because 4e is D&D and therefore whatever 4e feels like must by definition be one of the ways D&D feels. But it doesn’t make me feel bad. Maybe a bit annoyed at most.

 

[Oofta]

I cannot build half my 4e characters without using third party products and next to none from the just the 5e phb I call foul

Well, 4E had a very particular style of play. One based more on MMO presentation of abilities than the fantasy fiction D&D was built on. So if you're trying to replicate the specific powers of a 4E PC I can see why you'd have an issue.

I'm not trying to replicate 4E, a cartoon, an MMO or super heroes. I'm trying to simulate LOTR, Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser along with any number of fantasy tropes and pulp stories that appear in novels.

 

[Garthanos]

4e had like 10,000 splat books. 5e has maybe 2 or 3 books worth of splat?

It's not the system that's the issue there - it's the release rate and refusal to release any new classes.

Having just a fighter and just a Rogue for martial classes wouldnt be a problem if they were actually adaptable classes or if feats were able to adapt better (sentinel seems like a great defender feat except really we only get one reaction and it conflicts with the protection fighting style), they didnt seem to want you to be able to specialize or be functionally more than damage damage all damage. This is what 4e classes were accused of because of roles but roles actually were leveraged to create more approaches to the battle right away for martial types yeh for non-casters.

 

[Garthanos]

Well, 4E had a very particular style of play. One based more on MMO presentation of abilities than the fantasy fiction D&D was built on. So if you're trying to replicate the specific powers of a 4E PC I can see why you'd have an issue.

I want character able to defend there allies like mentioned by Gygax in the very first D&D I played regularly. I want a character that is the Alexander the Great and other tactical geniuses mentioned in the 2e PHB but which never happened.

I want that swordmage who protects allies an utterly different way with shielding and so on.

Flank you and your MMO Cartoon aspersions