D&D 4E Presentation vs design... vs philosophy

[Charlaquin]

Does the Cavalier succeed on the look mah I am a defender trick? You didnt seem to think so.

I don’t think it does. Like, the abilities it gives are very defender-y, but it takes too long to get them and you can’t use them often enough once you do.

 

[Garthanos]

Champion goes oh look I got a crit one time when i wouldnt as a battlemaster see we are different.

 

[FrogReaver]

Champion goes oh look I got a crit one time when i wouldnt as a battlemaster see we are different.

The champion implantation is bad. Doesn't mean the concept to design a basic fighter is bad.

 

[Maxperson]

The champion implantation is bad. Doesn't mean the concept to design a basic fighter is bad.

It's the simple class for people who don't want to worry about a lot of things that they have to do.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't know what you mean by too far apart. They come at level 3 for the most part, level 1 for some. You can hit level 3 by stepping on an anthill by accident.

Right, you get one meaningful feature and maybe a ribbon at level 3 then nothing else until level 7, and then nothing else until level 10, and then the campaign ends.

It's thematic and what you can do, pretty much only you can do. You don't have to be able to use your subclass abilities every round to alter the class feel.

You don’t have to be able to use them every round, but if having them doesn’t change the way your character behaves on a round by round basis, I wouldn’t consider that a meaningfully different feel.

A champion gets improved critical at level 3. 2x the chance to crit on every attack is very different than any other fighting class and is pretty significant. The 7th level ability giving proficiency to every strength, dex and con check you make is also significant.

A 5% greater chance of randomly doing more is not my idea of a meaningful difference, nor is a 10% greater chance of success on certain checks. That’s just numbers, it has no impact whatsoever on the decision making process or the possible outcomes. It doesn’t change the way the class plays it just makes you do the same exact stuff with higher numbers.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's the simple class for people who don't want to worry about a lot of things that they have to do.

I'm all for a simple class - but getting down to it - the champion was a terribly designed simple class.

 

[Maxperson]

Right, you get one meaning feature and maybe a ribbon at level 3 then nothing else until level 7, and then nothing else until level 10, and then the campaign ends.

That last is up to you. The campaigns I run don't end until somewhere between 16th and 20th level.

You don’t have to be able to use them every round, but if having them doesn’t change the way your character behaves on a round by round basis, I wouldn’t consider that a meaningfully different feel.

Then 5e is just plain problematic for you. It's not going to give you much of what you want.

 

[FrogReaver]

Right, you get one meaning feature and maybe a ribbon at level 3 then nothing else until level 7, and then nothing else until level 10, and then the campaign ends.


You don’t have to be able to use them every round, but if having them doesn’t change the way your character behaves on a round by round basis, I wouldn’t consider that a meaningfully different feel.


A 5% greater chance of randomly doing more is not my idea of a meaningful difference, nor is a 10% greater chance of success on certain checks. That’s just numbers, it has no impact whatsoever on the decision making process or the possible outcomes. It doesn’t change the way the class plays it just makes you do the same exact stuff with higher numbers.

I don't think it's fair to point to what is one of the worst designed subclasses in the game as evidence that the system itself isn't providing meaningful choices based on subclass.

 

[Garthanos]

I'm all for a simple class - but getting down to it - the champion was a terribly designed simple class.

In theory land the crit fishing to balance decided upon big booms is nice...

 

[Maxperson]

I'm all for a simple class - but getting down to it - the champion was a terribly designed simple class.

I've never seen a Champion played.