D&D 4E Presentation vs design... vs philosophy

[Maxperson]

Hmmm. Champion + Flametongue + GWM. I think I'm on to something that will compete with any battlemaster I've ever seen.

It's not bad. It's just mostly dull. I'd rather have fiddly things to do, rather than static abilities.

 

[Charlaquin]

That last is up to you. The campaigns I run don't end until somewhere between 16th and 20th level.

Well bully for you, but your experience is not consistent with the majority of 5e players, according to DND Beyond data.

Then 5e is just plain problematic for you. It's not going to give you much of what you want.

As a player? Yes, it is. On the other hand, the game is an absolute delight to DM, so much so that it manages to be my favorite edition despite its serious player-side problems. If I could combine the ease of use and DM-side flexibility of 5e with the depth of strategy and player-side options of 4e Essentials or PF2, I’d be set for life.

 

[Maxperson]

Well bully for you, but your experience is not consistent with the majority of 5e players, according to DND Beyond data.

So what. What level you stop at is your choice. 10th is not the capstone ability unless you want it to be.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't think it's fair to point to what is one of the worst designed subclasses in the game as evidence that the system itself isn't providing meaningful choices based on subclass.

Maxperson was the one who brought it up as an example, I just responded to it. The examples I used were the Thief and Assassin.

 

[Garthanos]

It's not bad. It's just mostly dull. I'd rather have fiddly things to do, rather than static abilities.

Did not think we would agree on that but yes fiddly options but I want them more prevalent than once or twice a fight...

 

[Charlaquin]

So what. What level you stop at is your choice. 10th is not the capstone ability unless you want it to be.

Even if you go to 20th level, which most games do not (and no, it’s usually not a choice, particularly not the players’ choice), you shouldn’t have to wait half your character’s career to get three freaking features that set you apart from other members of your class.

 

[FrogReaver]

Did not think we would agree on that but yes fiddly options but I want them more prevalent than once or twice a fight...

Barbarian can make great use of a lot of fiddly actions.
Monk is pretty solid there as well.

I really think you would enjoy the Cavalier fighter. Gives a mark ability that applies disadvantage to an enemy that attacks your ally at level 3. And if they do manage to hit the ally you can bonus action the next turn for big damage (another ability but limited uses).

Then the class just builds on that concept with the rest of it's features.

 

[Maxperson]

Did not think we would agree on that but yes fiddly options but I want them more prevalent than once or twice a fight...

I can understand that.

 

[Maxperson]

Even if you go to 20th level, which most games do not (and no, it’s usually not a choice, particularly not the players’ choice), you shouldn’t have to wait half your character’s career to get three freaking features that set you apart from other members of your class.

I can agree with that, too. I think 5e definitely has room for improvement. I just disagree that the subclass features do not differentiate PCs within a class.

 

[Charlaquin]

The only thing in 4e that might meet this criteria is at will powers and defender marking. Everything else is once per encounter or once per day.

Allow me to clarify: having an encounter or daily power changes your behavior on a round by round basis by giving you a limited resource that allows you to impact the encounter in a significant way. The decision of whether or not to use that resource this turn is a significant effect on gameplay, as is the effect it has when you do choose to use it. Having one thing you can do three times per day? Yes, that does affect your round by round behavior a bit, but not that much. Certainly not compared to having four different abilities you can use once per day each and four different abilities you can use once per encounter each, all of which have different effects on the encounter beyond just changing the numbers.