Prestige classes as branches

I kind of like the idea, but I don't like the "once you branch, you can never go back" approach. What about using Substitution levels, instead of true "branches"?

If you want to play an Acrobat, you start off with a rogue, and substitute Acrobat levels at levels 2, 4, 6, etc. Each increasing substitution level could have increasingly strict prerequisites. You still get a prestige class effect that take a core class in a different direction, but it's not as mechanically strict as having the core class itself branch.
 

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philreed said:
I was thinking that an interesting approach to prestige classes would be to eliminate them as they currently exist and instead make them branching options on existing core classes. Say once every three levels gained in a core class the player is presented with the option of continuing on in the core class or taking a prestige branch. A character may never go back once he's started down a branch.

Each branch could offer additional branches as it grows. This would make the core class descriptions much longer.

I'd probably go further, and make most class abilities accessible via something like feats or d20 Modern's talents. So instead of branching into a new class, you'd take a feat/talent/whatever appropriate to the sort of class abilities you want to pick up, if you had the prerequisites (and many abilities would be arranged in trees, with lower level abilities as prereqs). Then you could define organizations made up of people with particular feat/talent combos that'd fill the campaign role of a prestige class. Class descriptions would be relatively short, but the feat chapter would obviously get pretty huge.
 

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
If someone ELSE did all the work, I'd gladly try it out...but there's no way I'd ever attempt designing such a thing. Way too complicated.
What he said.

I like the PrC system the way it is. A character deviates from their normal training for a bit to specialize in a certain area, and later on they can hop right back.

I also HATE HATE HATE multiclassing penalties. If you want to take eight classes, fine. But you're going to have to spend time in-game training for each new class, and eventually you're going to be the guy who can do everything badly, while everyone else can do one thing with much awesome. But I just can't stand the idea that a character somehow begins to improve a whole lot slower from that day on because they took some time to study martial arts or take up swordplay.
 

I'd much rather prefer a base class + advanced class + prestige class set up (akin to d20 Modern)

Base: Fighter, Rogue, Monk, Cleric, Wizard, Psion (20 levels 1st level)

Advanced: Assassin, Cavalier, Ranger, Paladin, Necromancer, Mystic Theurge, Soulknife (10 levels, 3rd-5th level)

Prestige: Mage of the Arcane Order, Purple Dragon Knight, Shining Blade of Heironious, Nightsong Infiltrator, Arcmage (5 levels, no less than 10th).

Base define everything. Advanced focus your char and give cool class abilities. Prestige add very special abilities and greater focus.
 

Phil, have you taken a look at the Warhammer Fantasy RPG? (I'm not familiar with the older editions; I'm going solely by the new one Green Ronin put out.) Their career system involves a few similar elements to what you're talking about. You start in one career, and then as you "complete" it, you can move into a variety of others determined by your current or past careers.

Of course, it's vastly different in some respects as well. I'm not saying they did the job for you. But you might want to take a look at it, should you decide to go anywhere with this.
 

Every choice you make is a branching opportunity anyway.

"Should I end this sentence with a question mark or a period?" ... I opted for the former, while an alternate me somewhere chose the latter branch. (And oddly enough, we both converge again in the same time line. Go figure.)

So keep the current prestige class system and change its name if you like. "I'm not multiclassing into a duelist -- I'm branching into a duelist career. Yeah. That's the ticket...."
 

I was thinking that an interesting approach to prestige classes would be to eliminate them as they currently exist and instead make them branching options on existing core classes. Say once every three levels gained in a core class the player is presented with the option of continuing on in the core class or taking a prestige branch. A character may never go back once he's started down a branch.

Each branch could offer additional branches as it grows. This would make the core class descriptions much longer.

The thing is, this isn't really that dramatically different from how PrC's usually operate anyway. Someone takes Fighter to level 5, jumps into a PrC, and then is a Fighter/PrC for the rest of his career, maybe jumping to a similar class if the powers overlap. The different "branches" are different requirements -- a fighter that did XYZ could take PrC (or branch) 1, a fighter that did ABC could take Branch 2, etc. If the PrC is tough to get into (requiring, like, level 10), a character would maybe never go back to his original class.

The vast majority of PrC's out there represent variants on a core class that are specifically suited to particular foci of that core class.

Wasn't Creamsteak working on something like this for his Final Fantasy d20 thing?

I've hashed out something for my FFd20 project that works in a similar way to FFV, Tactics, X-2, and other "classed" FF games. The thing with this system is that the powers you gain stay with your character, but you can only access a limited number of them at a time when you change classes. The class can drastically change how one character accomplishes things, and cannot be tied well to character level (which advances independantly from class level).

The thing is that it requires 2 simultaneous systems of XP: one for character level, one for class level. The "normal" XP system only raises you HD according to your monster type (usually humanoid). You get more HP, better saves, more attack bonus, etc. The additional XP system (the "JP": Job Points) raises you according to your currently selected class.

Your currently selected class works something like a template. You gain some of the 1st level abilities of the class, and you gain more class-based abilities by gaining JP. It usually applies a "cap" to your statistics -- e.g.: the Wizard class may halve your hp, cap your Fort and Ref saves at 1/4th your HD, and give you a bonus to Will saves. The selected class would also give you a bonus/penalty to ability scores (in the Wizard's case, maybe a +2 Int, -2 Str).

As a character, you have a certain number of "job slots" based on your HD (two plus one per 5 levels). Your current job fills one of these automatically, and you can fill the other ones with selected abilities from your other jobs that you've gained with JP. You can change your job and job slots after 24 hours of rest.

There are a lot of problems and difficulties doing this on a pen-and-paper system that a computer takes care of really easily -- adjustments in HP, magic power, the categories for your class-based abilities, etc. There's also the verisimilitude question, since most of the characters in those FF games got powers not from their own skill, but from magical artifacts that contained the class powers (making someone who is a rogue one morning and a wizard the next more easily believable). You can literally wake up the next morning and be a nearly completely different character, ability-wise, which is harder to do in pen-and-paper games than on a computer.

So, let's give an example: Thurgood the Dwarf is a 1st level character, and his current job is Fighter. Fighters give you +25% maximum hp, +level attack bonus (maximum of your HD), grants you a bonus to Fort saves but caps your Will and Ref saves, and gives you +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. Every time he overcomes a challence, he recieved XP and JP (usually a lot of the former and a little of the latter). If he gains levels from XP, he increases his HD, attack bonus, ability scores, feats, and saves according to his humanoid type -- 1d8 hp/level, +3/4 attack bonus, etc. This has no effect on what he can do as a fighter. He doesn't gain hp, saves, or anything else as a fighter. He gains them as Thurgood. Let's say he gains 4 Thurgood levels before he's got two Fighter levels. He's a 4 HD character with the powers of a level 1 fighter, but with slightly better saves and hp.

As a first level fighter, he has access to the class-granted Fighter abilities, which happen to be "Fighter Bonus Feats." Accessing these bonus feats requires spending a job slot; Thurgood has one open job slot now.

When he gains enough JP to increase his fighter level, he gets another Bonus Feat, bringing his total to 2. Let's say he chose Cleave and Dodge ('cuz why not? :))

Now, he changes his job. He becomes a Wizard. the fighter template is removed (reducing his hp, adjusting his saves and ability scores, removing the attack bonus), and the Wizard template is applied. The wizard template further reduces his hp, re-adjusts his ability scores and saves, and lowers his attack bonus. Furthermore, the Wizard's automatic class-granted Wizard ability is "Wizard Spells," which takes up one of his job slots. He has one open job slot, and he spends it on "Fighter Bonus Feats," enabling him to access Cleave and Dodge again. He gains 3 levels of Wizard (with JP, not XP) and gets acess to "Wizard Spells Lv. 2" which allows him to cast spells like a 3rd level wizard. He does this, let's say, before he gains another HD. So now he's a 4 HD character with the powers of a second level fighter, and a 3rd level Wizard.

Now he changes his job to Rogue. He gains the Rogue job-template instead of the Wizard job-template, and the Rogue has "Sneak Attack" which takes up one of his job slots. He spends the other one on "Wizard Spells," basically making his fighter levels pointless for now. At least until he gainst another HD and gains a new ability slot....
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That said, I do kind of like the choice to "infuse" with certain abilities at certain levels, like the light/dark dichotomy mentioned above....might hafta think about this one....:)
 

If you were going to go to the trouble to figure out the 'branches' (and I agree with other posters, that is a *lot* of work), then why not take the concept to its logical extreme and instead point-value all feats, class abilities, skills, spells, etc. and move d20 to HERO-style point-buy? Some of the optional rules in Arcana Unearthed already do a lot of this groundwork. (And, Grim Tales does some of the ability valuation, although I am not sure if that is Open Content- Wulf?)

I am not really interested in the 'branch' idea- if I wanted to do that, I would do it with Grim Tales and d20 Modern rules. I like the flexibility of multiclassing too much. But, I would be *very* interested in a robust point-buy d20/OGL system, which could bridge my love of HERO to my D&D buddies. ;) That would add *more* flexibility instead of limiting it, as a 'branching' idea would by necessity.
 

I thought about doing something like this (after playing EQ2). I find with my group - casual players who aren't interesting in devoting too much time to character planning - the choice built into the current system is illusionary. They don't want to take advantage of it, so it really doesn't exist.

In my system, everyone would start with a base class at 1st level, take a class at 6th level, and an advanced class at 11th level. There would be no requirements for any of these (except race or alignment). So below, Skirmisher would be a 5 level class, as would Archer. Arcane Archer would be a 10 level class. I haven't got much beyond sketching out the trees and a few of the base classes.

Below is a tree for a skirmisher, a lightly armored warrior:

Skirmisher
  • Archer
    • Arcane Archer
    • Cragtop Archer
    • Master Thrower
    • Order of the Bow
  • Barbarian
    • Bear Warrior
    • Champion of Gwynharwyf
    • Frenzied Berserker
    • Frost Rager
  • Ranger
    • Beloved of Valarian
    • Cavelord
    • Consecrated Harrier
    • Goliath Liberator
    • Harper Paragon
    • Horizon Walker
    • Skylord
    • Stalker of Kharash
    • Swanmay
  • Swashbuckler
    • Blade Bravo
    • Dervish
    • Duelist
    • Peregrine Runner


craftyrat
 

rowport said:
If you were going to go to the trouble to figure out the 'branches' (and I agree with other posters, that is a *lot* of work), then why not take the concept to its logical extreme and instead point-value all feats, class abilities, skills, spells, etc. and move d20 to HERO-style point-buy? Some of the optional rules in Arcana Unearthed already do a lot of this groundwork.

Because point buy isn't necessarily the logical next step (feats and talents are)

It might be quite possible to change all class features (including HP, BAb, Saves and Skill points) into Feats and personally I already allow level 1 class abilities to be taken as feats.

So anyway a system could describe a character as a set of Feats

Base Character HD 4 BAb 0 Skills 1d6

Fighter
1 Toughness +2 ->HD4+2 = (3-6)
2 Toughness +2 ->HD4+2+2 = (5-8)
3 Martial Skill (BAb +2)
4 Good Save: Fort
5 Simple Weapons
6 Martial Weapons
7 Light Armour
8 Medium Armour
9 Shields
10 bonus

The same character might decide to specialise
Skirmisher
1 Toughness +2 ->HD4+2 = (3-6)
2 Martial Skill (BAb +2)
3 Good Save: Reflex
4 Simple Weapons
5 Martial Weapons
6 Light Armour
7 Medium Armour
8 Speed Talent +5
9 Dodge
10 Weapon focus

or

Mage Blade
1 Toughness +2 ->HD4+2 = (3-6)
2 Martial Skill (BAb +2)
3 Good Save: Reflex
4 Simple Weapons
5 Martial Weapons
6 Light Armour
7 Arcane Talent *gives access to Arcane Spellcasting chain
8 Arcane Spellcasting (Lvl 0 - Adept table)
9 Arcane Spellcasting (Lvl 1 - Adept table)
10 Weapon focus

Then gain other feats per level like a fighter does

NB I'm at work so the above abilities/feats are all off the top of m,y head
 

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