prices getting a little nuts?

[Wulf Ratbane]

Actually, our experience is that PDF release have a good impact on print sales. Every time we release a older product in PDF we see a small boost in print sales on that product. So retailers, especially on-line ones may actually see a few more sales due to you releasing your products as PDFs.

Oh, I'm with you on that. I think Monte has proven that it works several times over: I buy Monte's PDFs, and as soon as possible, I buy the print version.

But the average game store owner never lets reality get in the way of their preconceptions.

And the overwhelming response from retailers, in my experience, is a flat-out refusal to carry a product that is available as a PDF. I have a hard enough time deciding what d20 product to carry, the argument goes, so why should I carry something folks are going to steal off Kazaa anyway?

Wulf

 

[jmucchiello]

And the overwhelming response from retailers, in my experience, is a flat-out refusal to carry a product that is available as a PDF. I have a hard enough time deciding what d20 product to carry, the argument goes, so why should I carry something folks are going to steal off Kazaa anyway?

So they don't carry the PHB, DMG or MM either? Misconceptions are such wondrous things.

 

[spacecrime.com]

My problem, as I have said 2 or 3 times now, is that as more and more expensive books are published it takes away sales for the cheaper, third-tier companies.

The expensive books are not taking away the sales. Books don't do anything; they're inanimate objects.

What is happening is that customers are making choices as to which books they want. If you've got an issue with those choices, you need to convince more customers to choose the books that you want to see bought.

Given your whole "But I had to buy the B5 book, and now I don't have money for the books I really want!" shtick, you might want to start by convincing yourself.

And in turn those companies are going to either go out of business or be forced to raise the price of their books in the hope of making a small profit because of their decreased sales.

OR find a cost-effective way to produce a $25 book that will be the first choice of a customer choosing between it and other books on the shelves (including more expensive books).

Given how high a value you place on saving money, one would think you have some faith in the ability of a publisher to deliver a $25 book that you and other customers will buy in preference to a $45 book.

And thanks for being so nice about it too. I'm sure I will be running right out to buy things from your store now.

You're not a customer of my store, and I haven't been trying to convince you to become one. This makes your pronouncement a bit less disturbing than you might think it is.

 

[spacecrime.com]

I also see the RPG business as contracting in a serious way.

I don't know if this is necessarily the case. If it does contract, it's going to be due to larger economic issues such as unemployment and underemployment among the customer base. (Based on the tech layoffs that are happening in my area, this is a serious problem and is going to be for a while.)

Absent that, I think overall RPG sales are going to be remain stable or grow. (Hopefully grow, because there's some great games on the market and I like to think they're turning on new fans.) The number of publishers and products is going to contract, though how much depends on the stubbornness of publishers who are working for ego satisfaction rather than profit. I really think we're in a consolidation phase, and that the haves and have-nots are already in the process of being sorted out.

cheers,

Chris Aylott

 

[Desdichado]

The number of publishers and products is going to contract, though how much depends on the stubbornness of publishers who are working for ego satisfaction rather than profit. I really think we're in a consolidation phase, and that the haves and have-nots are already in the process of being sorted out.

I'd argue that that's already been going on for the better part of a year or more. I think we're (mostly) already seeing the publishers that have been able to carve out a successful niche for themselves.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Some random thoughts:

1. The higher the price, the less likely someone is to buy an item on impulse. This is basic common sense and premise of the person who started this thread. Most people plan their larger purchases - car, home, $50 B5 book.

2. Overall inflation rates are a weak argument for specific price increases. While many of the costs of producing and printing a book have increased over time, technology has made parts of the process much cheaper. In addition, much of the extra quality gamers are demanding is possible today because technology has made the tools - especially software - reasonably available. I don't mind a publisher telling me that the cost of their book is justified by their actual costs - just don't waste my time comparing dollars from 20 years ago.

3. Publishers are saying consistently that they can't make a profit on their products at the same price points charged just 3 years ago. I believe them. It just doesn't make me want to spend more on my hobby each month. It does make those publishers who successfully add extra value to their product more likely to get my limited dollars, hence the focus by many publishers on adding production value, not reducing prices. And yes, value is very much subjective among customers, so no publisher will please everyone.

4. There is an enormous glut of product in the market, so much so that even if I just wanted to own the very best, it would cost $100's or $1000's. Add in all the dreck, and it's no wonder individual items are not selling as well as 3 years ago.

5. There is an enormous glut of product on my bookshelf, so much so that I rarely impulse buy any more. A product has to really fill a need (I can always use more good town books with fleshed-out npc's) or be about something I really like (SG-1) for me to buy it now. Add in the whole 3.0/3.5/some other d20 system business, and I'm even pickier.

6. As product costs go up, I spend more time looking for cheaper alternatives - ebay, wal-mart, online, etc. This harms my FLGS, but as a consumer I have to make choices and paying full price (and thereby getting perhaps 25% fewer products) just to support my FLGS is a tough decision. I try to balance these things, but when the savings on one item approach $15 or more...it's hard justify going to the FLGS.

 

[JohnNephew]

First of, Monsternomicon is $30, B&W, and 240 pages. $30 isn't an impulse buy, atleast according a lot of folks here. When a book is 33% bigger, like 320 pages a fair price would be, $40 (ala BotR).

Indeed, the Penumbra Fantasy Bestiary is B&W, 368 pages, and $44.95. To compare per-page to $30/240 it would be $46. I think it's a very good value, in terms of content for your dollar. It certainly beats the pants off of buying 5 or 6 monster books, 64 pages each (and more of those pages devoted to title pages, OGL, etc.), for $75-$90 total.

On a project the size of the Bestiary, a lot of costs didn't get economy of scale benefits. Most importantly, it's loaded with text, in tiny type, and all those authors were paid 4 cents per word (versus the 2-3 cents many leading d20 publishers pay).

Maybe we need to set up the Bestiary for sale on a payment plan? You know, "just four easy payments of $14.99"! (the price would have to be higher to build in collection costs on deadbeat customers) Then it would be like going and buying one little 64-pager in the game store each month...

 

[Desdichado]

You're not a Penumbra guy, are you?

 

[trancejeremy]

Maybe we need to set up the Bestiary for sale on a payment plan? You know, "just four easy payments of $14.99"! (the price would have to be higher to build in collection costs on deadbeat customers) Then it would be like going and buying one little 64-pager in the game store each month...

What I would like to see, is something like Netflix for RPGs. You know, $20 a month to rent rpg books.

There are literally over a 100 d20 books I want, but can't afford. And as someone who can only afford to spend around $30 a month or so on RPGs, my want list keeps getting bigger, not smaller.

 

[reiella]

I would also add that game prices have really seemed to escalate over the last 3 years. When 3E first came out everything was around $20.00. The 3 core books were $20.00, the follow up books were $20.00, and most of the support books published by third-party companies were around $20.00. 3 years later and now it is nearly impossible to find anything less than $30.00. Now granted maybe production quality has increased dramatically over the last 3 years, and maybe inflation has gone through the roof in the last 3 years, but it really does not seem to be the case to me.

3E Core Books were loss leaders.

Now, let's consider the 3E PsiHB, 26.95$ for 160 pages color HardBack.

Or the FRCS, 39.95$ for 320 pages color HardBack...

50$ fits as a nice point for me at least. It's same rough price as video/computer entertainment games. And I'm certain that there are a good number of folks who impulse buy video games . Just look at the .hack series (woohoo 50$ 4 volume serial video game ). The arguable difference is that there are more costs in video game entertainment than for P&P. Although to a large extent most of that gets made up with sheer volume (and licensed products, etc).

On the PDF/Print issue (Selling PDFs while/before the book is in circulation), it can work really well. The trouble is, the PDF needs to be of a bit higher quality for it to succeed in print form simultaneous with the PDF (Monte's work, Interludes, etc).