Primogeniture help

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Looking for either a RL historical example or a convincing legal argument for my campaign. In the primary kingdom they practice something very close to male-preference primogeniture. Basically eldest surviving male child inherits titles, if there are no male children eldest female child inherits. Then from there to siblings, etc. (That's the difference - look for female children before going to alternate heirs.)

We have a case where someone had forfitted their titles and their son took them up. If they later had a child and the son died without heir, would that child be in line to inherit?

I'm not looking for "whatever makes the story right" or "I'd do X" - I'm looking for either a legalistic (even if completely made up) explanation of Yes or No, or an actual historical precedent so I could then go look up why it went that way. As a side note, one of my players is an actual lawyer - consider this world building.

 

log in or register to remove this ad

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I think it could depend on the specific locale's interpretation. Does the forfeiture of titles by the parent and ascension by son mean that any post-forfeiture children are cut out of succession? That would depend, I presume, on the importance of forfeiture in the culture. Does the shame of it apply to children that come along afterward? This is the stuff that dynastic disputes and skullduggeries are made of!
If forfeiture is less of a big deal, then I'd expect that post-forfeiture child to be in the succession line somewhere. They would, after all, be a sibling to the initial dead inheritor. And even if forfeiture were a big deal, they'd be close enough to succession that surely some nobles would sign on and help field an army. See, this is why you should always kill rival claimants to your title. Much tidier.
 
Last edited:

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Im looking for either a legalistic (even if completely made up) explanation of Yes or No, or an actual historical precedent so I could then go look up why it went that way. As a side note, one of my players is an actual lawyer - consider this world building.

So, cultures that do this generally have defined the logic for exactly how the order of succession works. They still have wars over it, though, which tells you how solid it is.

If you want to see this in action, I suggest you read about the issues of succession in the War of the Roses. In this case, Richard II came to the throne at the age of 10. He had no siblings, and no offspring. He had, however, three living uncles on his father's side. There was no clear answer to who would take the throne after Richard II died.


However, for your case, the point is that there is no generic solution, because each culture has its own rules that define the order of succession.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I think it could depend on the specific locale's interpretation. Does the forfeiture of titles by the parent and ascension by son mean that any post-forfeiture children are cut out of succession? That would depend, I presume, on the importance of forfeiture in the culture. Does the shame of it apply to children that come along afterward? This is the stuff that dynastic disputes and skullduggeries are made of!
If forfeiture is less of a big deal, then I'd expect that post-forfeiture child to be in the succession line somewhere. They would, after all, be a sibling to the initial dead inheritor. And even if forfeiture were a big deal, they'd be close enough to succession that surely some nobles would sign on and help field an army. See, this is why you should always kill rival claimants to your title. Much tidier.
Yeah, it definitely has multiple possible interpretations on which is correct. That's why I'm looking for something solid - either RL that I can look up or a strong-sounding legalistic argument that settles it one way or the other, even if fictional.

I need something that "sounds genuine" when it's in discussion in-game, and the player who is a RL lawyer is involved in this whole thing, so if it sounds wibbly-wobbly it won't give the same satisfaction.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
However, for your case, the point is that there is no generic solution, because each culture has its own rules that define the order of succession.
That's the point - I am looking to define how the culture does it. Not based on "the correct" way in the real world, but in such a way that it sounds genuine to a RL lawyer who is one of my players.

I am not asking "what it the one true way this happens", I am asking me "give me either a time historically this happened so I can get RL details, or make up something that sounds like a strong legal argument why it happens one way". The (LN) Imperium this happens to is old (and failing, almost failed) and has already shown that they have lots of laws on the books for corner cases because they have already had time to occur.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Yeah, it definitely has multiple possible interpretations on which is correct. That's why I'm looking for something solid - either RL that I can look up or a strong-sounding legalistic argument that settles it one way or the other, even if fictional.

I need something that "sounds genuine" when it's in discussion in-game, and the player who is a RL lawyer is involved in this whole thing, so if it sounds wibbly-wobbly it won't give the same satisfaction.
I think you could use the War of the Roses as a case (which I was thinking of independent of Umbran) and contrast with somewhere like Shogunate Japan. It's hard to imagine that any amount of disgrace or perfidy could keep someone from having a potential power base for contesting succession in England - but in Japan, with its stronger social rigidity, you can probably assume the stain of major dishonor would render heirs persona non grata.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I am not asking "what it the one true way this happens", I am asking me "give me either a time historically this happened so I can get RL details, or make up something that sounds like a strong legal argument why it happens one way".

This is why I handed you the War of the Roses as an example.

IIRC, in the English monarchy, for most times when there was any question at all about the order of succession (so, whenever it wasn't father handing to son), there was at least a small war. The real-life examples are mostly failure modes, not quiet and smooth successes we can point to for it working.
 

Tantavalist

Explorer
The unfortunate facts here are that... Succession Law was both a really big deal and incredibly complicated in RL history. This means that you can make up how it works as anything you want, and you could probably find some version of that from real history.

Anyone who's played the Crusader Kings series of PC games can tell you how the succession and inheritance laws are for that. Have a look at the Succession Laws page for the Wiki and then look at Wikipedia if you want some legal-sounding terms.

As any RL lawyer would tell you- laws are a confusing and contradictory mess, and that's why we need to pay experts to tell us how they work. A law starts off simple and clear-cut, but then subsequent events cause it to be revised or expanded on. So- male heirs inherit always. But then a situation arises where a male heir that whoever makes the laws doesn't like will inherit something and an exception is added. And this goes on for generations.

These clauses, as with any law, will often sound arbitrary and nonsensical outside of the context that led to them being made. But they're legally binding.

It could also be the case that there is no clear answer. In this case they take the case before a Judge (who may be the King, or whoever is regent if the title is the Crown) and then argue it out. Let your laywer friend argue why it should go one way or the other In Character, because that's how things work out IRL if there's no clear precedent. Which there may not be.

TLDR: The lack of any clear legal answer to the succession can and did happen in real history and wars have been fought because of such.
 

You are essentially asking what the legal ramifications of "forfeiture" are in this situation. While I don't know what the legal code of your imaginary kingdom is, are there are two possibilities that make sense:

1) the king has renounced any rights for him and his descendants in perpetuity; or
2) the king has renounced his own right to hold the title, but his descendants still any claim they had before

Since we know that in this case forfeiture resulted in his first child taking the throne, it has to be #2. In other words the king would have had to renounced his rights BEFORE anyone else took the throne. If he forfeited the rights of any of his descendants along with his own, his kid wouldn't have been the next king. Although the former king can't hold the title (he is treated as deceased for succession purposes) his later child still has a claim as a sibling of the last king. This is the only scenario that makes sense given the precedent that was set here.
 

So I have degrees in both American law and English history, and did some preliminary research for a dissertation which touched on land inheritance in Late Medieval and Early Modern England. So I have gotten deep into the weeds of this sort of thing and can give you an example system, but I'm operating from memory and conflating several systems in place over centuries in English law, which itself historically had two separate court systems ("law" and "equity") with their own conflicting rules that changed over centuries.

To broadly generalize, with primogeniture, upon failure of a line you go back to the last holder of the thing in question who does have living heirs and trace down to the eldest of the closest male descendants to them. In the fact pattern outlined the abdicator abdicates in favor of their first child. When the first child dies without any descendants we go back up to the abdicator, treat them as dead for the purposes of this inheritance, and it goes to their subsequent child. Sometimes someone might abdicate something on behalf of themselves and all their descendants, but this is clearly not the case outlined as it was one of their descendants who they abdicated in favor of.

In England the crown itself was male preference primogeniture. Noble titles, however, were strict male primogeniture and could not be held by women at all (unless they were a reigning queen, who can sort of be the Duke of Lancaster). Property followed its own rules, but could be bequeathed with a variety of strings attached. Aristocratic families often at some point employed the help of a lawyer to bequeath their property in land to the next generation with the condition of some variation of primogeniture attached ever after. If the family had noble titles, setting up the property to both be inalienable and follow the same inheritance pattern of the primary title would be the norm. In any case, attaching such conditions to property is actually an act of private law, not a public law of the land, and so can have a lot of variation beyond just normal issues of the norm in the time and place. The inheritance of a particular property may have all sorts of eccentric rules attached. In any case this privately contracted "primogeniture", the entail, is the form of "primogeniture" we encounter at the core of so many Jane Austen plots and the like about daughters being thrown out of the family home in favor of some male fourth cousin.

Noble titles could not be inherited up beyond the person who first received them. If the original recipient and all their male heirs are dead, the title fails. In England this typically meant that the husband of the last holder's closest female relative would get a new creation of the title so that it would stay with her and her sons, provided the family had the good will or influence with the monarchy to make that happen. In your scenario the second child is the heir for whatever the first child received from the abdicator, but not necessarily for any other property, titles, etc. they may have acquired.

Looking beyond England, the inheritance rules of Royal titles and other titles that involved actual rule were much more complicated because, whatever the inheritance law theoretically was, the heir who could enforce their claim through political or military influence ultimately got the title.
 

Remove ads

Top