Prisoner not allowed to play D&D

[billd91]

One of my huge criticisms of news reporting these days.

Hey, don't confine your criticism to the news reporting. Why is it true that "if it bleeds, it leads"? Because that, and the latest celebrity pecadillo, is what it takes to catch the attention of the feckless public.

 

[Bullgrit]

"First-degree intentional homicide"? Isn't that "murder"?

"The man was bludgeoned to death with a sledgehammer." Sounds like "murder".

As for him not being allowed to play D&D in prison: too bad, so sad. Punishment sucks, don't it?

As for the prison officials' description of D&D:

promotes fantasy role playing, competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling

What the hell?

Bullgrit

 

[Mark Chance]

It's almost like when after you murder someone you lose the right to do certain things and make certain decisions. What's up with that?

On the plus side, there's a movie in this: Expert roleplayer wrongly convicted of murder. Sent to the big house. Forced by evil warden to participate in lethal LARP event in the dungeons beneath the prison.

I'd pay to see that long before I'd go see most of what gets released nowadays.

 

[TheYeti1775]

Why not offer an alternative?

Ask the prision official(s) to sit in on games?
If it is promoting bad behavior, nix it. If it is socializing them, and promoting otherwise good behaviors, reward it.

Besides if they are addicted to the game like Moar Zombies than they will figure out a way to play without books. Worked a securtiy job with another gamer where all we did was check id's as they came into the warehouse, we used to have whole sessions in our 8 hour shift without a book or dice around.
Even the 1E DMG had rules for if you had no dice. Put the numbers on a piece of paper and randomly point at it. (if I remember right, don't have the book in front of me for the right reference). I know I used this method once on the school bus cause none of us wanted to lose dice bouncing around it.

Now while I can agree with the punishment of taking the items away, what I can't agree on is the seizing of the written maniuscript for a scenario as it falls under another set of laws outside of D&D.

From the article it says another prisioner complained about it, personally I would chalk it up to someone bring a bit of 'religion' into the mix with it.

 

[JohnRTroy]

This reminds me of the case done in the 90s where Gary Gygax testified for an inmate who felt he was unfairly targeted when the Warden had his gaming correspondence destroyed. I wish I could remember the details...

 

[Celebrim]

Hrmph. D&D also promotes cooperation, following the rules, and working together to accomplish a common goal.

So does working for the mob or being in a street gang. In D&D terms, you seem to be advocating for a rehabilitation from chaotic to lawful, and not necessarily of evil to good. I'm not sure that it would necessarily be an improvement to go from unfocused random individual acts of evil to organized, cooperative, goal-oriented evil.

Seriously, I don't think you can argue for the rehabilitative nature of D&D. D&D can be a very moral game if you play it that way. In theory, it could be socializing and teach something of a moral compass. But, D&D can be a very amoral game if you play it that way. And, D&D can be a very immoral game if you play it that way. There is nothing inherently instructive much less redeeming about it. This is at the minimum the corallary to the claim that its 'just a game' (which I disagree with, in any event).

Sure, D&D in theory can teach you basic math, vocabulary, spatial skills, small group leadership skills, etc., but none of those things make someone less likely to kill in and of themselves.

I kind of shudder to think what a game of D&D played by actual murderers would look like given what the game often objectively looks like played by generally law abiding and somewhat moral individuals. Given the presumable lack of a moral compass present in the group at hand, I find it very unlikely that the game they were playing was managing to teach them right from wrong when life failed at that task.

 

[Sammael]

So does working for the mob or being in a street gang. In D&D terms, you seem to be advocating for a rehabilitation from chaotic to lawful, and not necessarily of evil to good. I'm not sure that it would necessarily be an improvement to go from unfocused random individual acts of evil to organized, cooperative, goal-oriented evil.

People are sentenced to prison for breaking the law (i.e. being chaotic), not for committing evil acts. Perhaps the person he killed was molesting his sister? In most D&D games, that wouldn't be classified as "evil." However, by committing the murder, he broke the law, and he's serving a sentence for it. Indeed, most rehab programs deal with enabling individuals to function within the normal society - sure sounds lawful to me.

 

[Umbran]

Seriously, I don't think you can argue for the rehabilitative nature of D&D. D&D can be a very moral game if you play it that way. In theory, it could be socializing and teach something of a moral compass. But, D&D can be a very amoral game if you play it that way. And, D&D can be a very immoral game if you play it that way. There is nothing inherently instructive much less redeeming about it. This is at the minimum the corallary to the claim that its 'just a game' (which I disagree with, in any event).

Yes. One cannot have one's cake and have it too.

Some folks are very strong on the idea that games (be they RPGs or video games or what have you) don't lead people to be violent or lead to anti-social behaviors - that the games don't teach these things.

But a teaching tool is a tool - what you learn from it depends not so much on the tool as on how the tool is used. It isn't like the tool is somehow guarded or guaranteed to teach only positive things. A hammer is good for whacking things - whether it is being used to build a fine house or stave in someone's skull depends on the hands holding the hammer, not the hammer itself, right?

So, I think you get to take your pick - either it is "just a game", and you don't have to worry about the effects, or it is an effective teaching tool, and you have to consider what it might be used to teach.

If it is "just a game", then there should not be any issue with restricting it in a correctional facility. If it is a teaching tool, and they cannot put some effective control on what is taught, again restricting it shouldn't be seen as a big issue.

 

[Celebrim]

People are sentenced to prison for breaking the law (i.e. being chaotic), not for committing evil acts. Perhaps the person he killed was molesting his sister? In most D&D games, that wouldn't be classified as "evil." However, by committing the murder, he broke the law, and he's serving a sentence for it. Indeed, most rehab programs deal with enabling individuals to function within the normal society - sure sounds lawful to me.

The fact that I felt the need to follow up that statement by qualifying the next statement with the word, "Seriously...", should indicate to you that my tongue was somewhat in my cheek in the portion you quoted and that I didn't take the analogy very seriously.

In any event, I think in most societies there is a strong attempt to codify morality into the law, or at the very least to codify what is immorality into the law. I can't discuss that in detail with out getting political, but I will say that the appropriate response to the unnuanced claim of, "You can't legislate morality!", is, "What would you want to legislate instead?" Generally we don't make something illegal unless we also think it is immoral, and most certainly I think we can generally agree that murder falls into that category. We would like to think that when someone is punished for breaking the law, it is because the law justly punishes immoral behavior, and where we don't think this is so we are generally compelled to change the law so that it is so.

Our legal system takes into account that there might be mitigating factors involved, but murder is still murder - we still deem it immoral even where we might sympathize with the mitigating factors. Were we don't deem it immoral, we don't call it murder nor do we punish for it.

If you really wanted to make the argument that we don't know the alignment of the prisoners, you'd be better off arguing that not everyone that the law holds in contempt is actually guilty of the crime they are charged with. You could also effectively argue, I think, that its possible for someone to be repentive. However, whether either argument is effective in this case seems doubtful, nor does either argument help much in the argument that prisoners have an inherent right to play D&D, monopoly, tiddlywinks, basketball or World of Warcraft.

 

[Umbran]

Um, folks - while discussion of the news, and even the use of D&D in rehabilitation is reasonable, going into the morality (or lack thereof) in our criminal justice system is verging into politics. Do take care not to wander too far in that direction, please.