TSR Problematic Faves and Early D&D

[ccs]

A. Do you have an RPG "problematic fave?"
According to others, Yes - Dungeon & Dragons.
In particular, my favorite edition,1e. Complete with all it's warts - alignments, stat requirements for classes, stat mins/max based on race & wether male/female, etc etc etc.
Pick something in D&D, especially in 1e. I'm sure you can find somebody here in 2020 that has a problem with it.
Heck, pick something not necessarily in D&D & there's somebody out there with a hangup about it claiming it's present & thus "problematic". Or "problematic" because it's actually not present. It's like looking at clouds or star gazing. You can see any patterns you want....

B. How do you handle it?
This'll probably sound horrible to some of you, but;
I don't seriously worry about peoples opinions on the subject beyond those present at the table with me.
As this seems to have worked well enough over the last 4 decades, I expect it'll do for the next 25 yrs or so.

 

[briggart]

I also remember how my internet searches for the game Primeval Thule also brought up links involving Thule and Nazi ideology (i.e., the Thule Society).

Thule was a Greek-Roman concept, referring to a land in Northern Atlantic, several days of sail North of Britain and possibly above the Arctic circle. there's no agreement on modern day identification of Thule (candidates include Faroe, Greenland, Ireland, Norway,... ), or even if the original accounting of a voyage to Thule actually happened.

I'd say the connection between Primeval Thule and Nazi ideology is at the same level as the connection between Nazi ideology and Hinduism, due to both using Swastikas.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Very thorough analysis, though your one of your comparisons sticks out: the

a) that a typical married woman is indistinguishable from a prostitute

because as always if you assume a typical moral compass this goes both ways:
Has a married woman to be pictured differently than a prostitute and if, in what way?
And if we picture her differently does that down-value a woman who is - forced into / takes pride in caring for lone man in a social way by - being a prostitute?

I didn't want to go to into the weeds on the example, but it's common to see misogynistic references to women as "prostitutes" (and/or various less neutral terms terms for that, similar to 'horror') in either the literal or figurative sense. In addition, the idea that either all women are prostitutes, or that you can't tell the difference, tends to be a misogynistic theme; sex as a commodity that women are withholding from men.

That doesn't mean that, for example, there aren't powerful arguments that are made today regarding normalizing and/or destigmatizing sex work. That's beyond the scope of what I was writing about, and I don't think that the particular passage (or the companion random harlot table) is a good argument regarding the moral value and worth of sex workers.

But AD&D (PHB, DMG) was written from a distinctly male point of view, and is unlikely to be seen as (and was not seen as) particularly inclusive toward women in subtle and not-so-subtle ways at the time. This was already a very long piece, and I didn't want to go into the other structural issues.

 

[Aldarc]

Thule was a Greek-Roman concept, referring to a land in Northern Atlantic, several days of sail North of Britain and possibly above the Arctic circle. there's no agreement on modern day identification of Thule (candidates include Faroe, Greenland, Ireland, Norway,... ), or even if the original accounting of a voyage to Thule actually happened.

I'd say the connection between Primeval Thule and Nazi ideology is at the same level as the connection between Nazi ideology and Hinduism, due to both using Swastikas.

I’m aware, but NASA recently in 2029 renamed an object from Ultima Thule to Arrokoth due to Third Reich connotations that the former had. Regardless of whether Swastikas or Thule have more innocent origins, sometimes it doesn’t matter when the symbols are re-appropriated by far more problematic ideologies. And the Thule Society has incredibly strong Third Reich links.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Mercurius- I appreciate the very long and thoughtful points you made. I think your reasoned points (whether I agree in full, in part, or not at all) are articulated well, and I enjoyed reading them. I just wanted to address one thing-

I would question that last part. "Cannot?" Why not? I mean, like you, I like to know about all of the factors involved, and to make informed choices in what I vote for or "consume," but I question the idea of adding "shoulds" to artistic consumption. What you enjoy in terms of your artistic and hobby life is entirely up to you, as is how you enjoy it (as long as it is within the bounds of law, of course!). I don't have to like it or agree with your take on it, but the experience is yours.

This was in response to my statement, "I can still enjoy it (AD&D), but I also understand that I cannot enjoy it uncritically." I didn't fully explain this, but this kind of goes to the heart of the idea of problematic faves, or even placing historic material within context.

Let me start with a quick analogy. Think of a musician - Michael Jackson, say. There is a difference between saying that I can no longer enjoy his music, and I can no longer enjoy his music uncritically. If I hear Billie Jean or Dirty Diana or Beat It, I don't start punching myself in the face so that I can feel pain equal to the enjoyment I get from the music. But I also recognize that there will be people that cannot put aside those issues; that cannot enjoy his music to the same extent that I do. Different people have different thresholds (for me, its the aforementioned Marion Zimmer Bradley; I will never, ever read a Darkover book again).

So it is with AD&D; if I am playing AD&D, I don't don a hairshirt. I have fun! It is always fun!

But I am also cognizant that there were people that did not have the fun I did; people that did not feel welcome (and I remember times I did not feel welcome as well). I am open to the idea that there are people (for various reasons) that are unable to enjoy it; either because of experiences that they had at that time, or because of the way that parts of it can appear today.

To me, it's a process of engagement. It's like HP Lovecraft; the red flag, to me, isn't people that can still enjoy Lovecraft (I do), it's when people can't, or won't acknowledge that some of his horror and themes of alienation derived from a very specific and dark place.

EDIT: And I don't mean to be either reductive or prescriptive in these matter; a while back I mentioned the example that I keep thinking about- that Dave Chappelle famously quit his show when he was doing a skit that involved him donning blackface, and hearing an audience member laughing too hard, and too long at it. Laughing at, laughing with; mocking stereotypes or reinforcing them; enjoying Toto ironically or enjoying them ... um, yeah .... Anyway, there are few easy answers.

 

[Doug McCrae]

They were white Midwestern boys who grew up playing "cowboys and Indians" and watching Hollywood Westerns in the cinemas and on television. They grew up reading pulp action adventure and science fiction stories, Flash Gordon serials, and the stories of Edgar Rice Burroughs, J.R.R. Tolkien, H.P. Lovecraft, Robert E. Howard and the like.

We know Gary Gygax read the strip Gookum in Mad magazine #2 (1952).

The Tarzan parody Melvin in the same issue features the Ookaballakonga, a tribe of cannibals "on the warpath" depicted with pointed teeth and nose bones.
The same tribe are on the warpath again in Melvin of the Apes in #6. An almost identical tribe, the Ookabolaponga, appear in the King Kong parody, Ping Pong, also in #6. They "need woman for sacrifice". In The Lone Stranger Rides Again in #8 the hero battles the Ookabollawonga, a "tribe of bloodthirsty injuns". When they capture the Lone Stranger, they take him to "Chief Wonga for exquisite torture".

This gives us an insight into not only Gary Gygax’s reading material in his formative years but, as a parody magazine containing several short strips per issue, the wider culture of the early 50s. It goes some way to explaining the Tribesman entry in the 1e MM: "Primitive tribesmen are typically found in tropical jungles or on islands. They use large shields…. These men dwell in villages of grass, bamboo or mud huts… There is a 50% chance that there will be 2-12 captives (food!) held in a pen." And how Gygax may have extrapolated from "tribes of Orcs" in OD&D Book 2 Monsters & Treasure to the many evil tribal humanoids with less than human intelligence in the 1e MM.

 

[briggart]

I’m aware, but NASA recently in 2029 renamed an object from Ultima Thule to Arrokoth due to Third Reich connotations that the former had. Regardless of whether Swastikas or Thule have more innocent origins, sometimes it doesn’t matter when the symbols are re-appropriated by far more problematic ideologies. And the Thule Society has incredibly strong Third Reich links.

I disagreed about Ultima Thule name change as well*, for pretty much the same reasons.

I think that context is fundamental to justify use. In Italy, we have a law specifically forbidding "apologia del fascismo", which roughly translate to "making excuses/defending Fascism". Among other things, it forbids the glorification of "members, principles, facts, and methods" of the Fascist Party. A significant part of Fascist iconography was inspired by Ancient Rome symbols and institutions, so it's perfectly ok to refer to those symbols to discuss or even glorify Ancient Rome, not to promote Fascist ideology.

"Banning" these kind of words or symbols regardless of context looks to me as a too simplistic solution, which focuses on fixing form rather than substance.

* IIRC, it was never actually named UT. That was what the team wanted to propose to the naming committee, the proposal was changed to Arrokoth before submission. Not that this changes anything about your point, simply my OCD flaring up .

 

[Aldarc]

I understand the importance of context @briggart. I am not suggesting that we ban these things in their entirety. Context matters. My point is that we should use these things with caution and be cognizant of how their use may have unintended implications.

 

[MGibster]

A. Do you have an RPG "problematic fave?"

Call of Cthulhu: We all know the problems with that, I think.

Legend of the Five Rings: Mostly written by a bunch of white people, some of the language is incorrect, and at least one particular word to describe social class of people is very offensive.

Deadlands: An old west setting where the Confederacy still exists (in practical terms that means they won) and they willingly emancipated their slaves.

B. How do you handle it?

Call of Cthulhu: To address to Shoggoth in the room, it's pretty easy to avoid pitfalls by not depicting all people with skin darker than an eggshell as degenerates, somehow closer to primeval truths, or villains. And while I typically set games in the 20s or 30s, I tone down the vitriolic racism that existed at the time. It exists, but none of us are going to have fun if one of the PCs can't access an area in game because of skin color.

Legend of the Five Rings: I just play the game and don't sweat the problematic aspects.

Deadlands: You know what's even more unrealistic than demons invading Earth and feeding off our fears? The Confederacy still being around in 1876. The authors' were attempting to create a setting where you could have fun spy vs. spy intrigue in the old west, but the conflict between the CSA and USA was never a big theme of any Deadlands campaign I ever ran or played in. Pretty much every major component of the setting works just as well without the CSA's existence that it boggles my mind that it was even there in the first place. Personally, I think they expected the spy vs. spy aspect to have a bigger role than it ended up having. In my games, the CSA may as well not have existed for all the impact they had on the campaign.

Update: The latest edition of Deadlands has the CSA collapsing around 1871. The war was prolonged because of supernatural nonsense but they eventually lost anyway.

 

[Doug McCrae]

One aspect of HP Lovecraft's writing I'm uncertain whether to ditch: the progeny of the coupling between humans and non-humans being cursed by their heritage. Examples include The Shadow Over Innsmouth, The Dunwich Horror, and Facts Concerning the Late Arthur Jermyn and his Family. It's very similar to fears about miscegenation and non-white ancestry. Lovecraft may also, consciously or otherwise, have been channelling his fear of hereditary syphilis.