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Problems creating a campaign
- Thread starter corcio
- Start date
Imagicka
Explorer
Of course they are weak. They are first level. The only problem I see when you start a group off at a higher level is that they may not work together. (Just as a group starting at first level would.) Where you might have had them agree to be an ‘organized & cooperative’ group. Now, if you don’t mind in-fighting, and come up with some reason as to why the party is together. Or work out party cohesion in game, that’s fine… I usually give my players a choice. If you want to play at higher level to start, then you’re going to have to act as an organized group that has spent some time together. No in-fighting. Period. There are costs to starting off at a higher level.corcio said:
Players can’t have it both ways. Yes… sometimes there is necessity in the fact that sometimes players are required to take the adventure path that has been laid out in front of them. Do your players feel railroaded when they find out that the thieves that broke into the inn and stole the magical mystical Loknar from the wizard’s knapsack came from a thieves-guild that works out of the Laughing Skull tavern, and they’ve decided that they are going to pay a visit to this establishment?corcio said:
Players hopefully won’t feel that they are being railroaded. Or at least you’re going to have to learn to disguise it better. But making players want to go somewhere is very difficult. That’s why I try to gear stories and campaigns to the motivations of the characters. ”Well, of course the Laughing Skull tavern is full of thieves, and of course, if you don’t want to recover the Loknar, that’s okay. But that grand-magus Imagicka hired you to take it to his good friend Mr. Big Nose… so… what are you going to do now?“
After all, they can always choose to give up and walk away from a given situation. But since you’ve also let players also choose their path, and they feel that they have too many choices. Then I honestly don’t know what they are complaining about. Here’s the thing. I wouldn’t let them just flounder about and encounter wandering monsters if they decide not to go the way you’ve planned them to go. But if they do flounder, there are consequences to their actions. Do you think the BBEG is going to wait? Do you think the orcs that the players have heard rumours about are going to wait just outside of town for you to get there, and not raid the town? Now, I’m not saying you avalanche the players with the resolutions of all the missed opportunities. But if they were given the chance to do something, and they didn’t bother; let them know that some other group of adventurers cleaned out the local dungeon, or took on the orc raiders and now the town is all a buzz because *those guys* found magical swords and armour and a mountain of gems.
I try to lay out some carrots for the players, and if they decide on one, great… I have something planned for that. If they decide to do something completely different… well… I’m just going to have to wing it. But, if the players decide to do absolutely nothing; well, the money is going to run out very quickly now isn’t it? It costs money to feed yourself and stay in an inn.
I once had a player who complained every time I put forth a situation where his paladin felt compelled to get involved. – Thieves strong-arming local merchants for protection money. – Peasant mother requesting help to locate her lost son. – You get the idea He thought I was railroading his character.
”Railroading your character? If I was doing that, I’d be telling you what was happening to your character, and you wouldn’t have any choice in the matter.”
“But your putting him in situations that he feels he must respond to.” He replies.
“You are playing a paladin aren’t you? If you want to play the reluctant paladin, that’s a completely different story. But any situation…ANY situation where your character has an opinion or feeling about… which is pretty much EVERY situation… you are going to have to decide how your character is going to respond. Playing a paladin means that you have a morality that is intrinsic to your character, as well as being more ‘driving’ than others. You could just ignore the situation and walk away. But then, choosing not to act at all is also a choice, and we know how that’s going to end don’t we?”
Yeah, it’s good to have contingencies set up. But players have a habit and uncanny knack for finding ways that you’d hadn’t thought of. The true art of being a GM is being quick on your feet and think of ways to make your existing plans fit (to which players have the illusion of choice, but are still going where you want them to go), or you have to come up with new plans on the fly. – I try to think up the contingencies as far as ‘What happens when the players don’t do this? What if they fail, or flee? What happens?’ But that’s as far as I will take things, since I like to run things more on the fly.
Well, the change of setting can be done very easily. I try to make the players feel like they are in a different city/setting by describing different architecture… different customs… different attitudes of people… styles of dress. But if you want to do something radical like dropping them into a completely different world… well… they are definitely going to find it different. But I tend to think about What is different between this country and that one? What is the difference between these two neighbouring towns? Parishes? Villages. Because even small towns and villages would have their own rivalries between each other and their customs. I even try to throw in the occasional celebration… local wedding… feast day… holiday…
Since your players seem to want to play in an all evil campaign. That just might be the change of setting that they are looking for. Just remember one thing. When you’re evil, you attract the attention of not only the good-guys, but also the attention of the evil competition. I always consider the setting when I have an all-evil campaign. In a ‘good’ world, everyone ignores the ‘normal/good’ people. In an ‘evil-dominated’ world; everyone tends to ignore… or at least doesn’t interfere... with those who are more powerful than themselves. So no one really ignores the ‘evil’ party. This requires the players to play smarter. Sure, they are a bunch of power-hungry evil villains that are looking to take over the world, or at least their little part of it, quick. Question is, how do they keep that power? How do they keep from turning on each other? After all, it just stands to reason… if we’re going after some evil lich that has a bunch of goodies we can loot…what do you think a party of evil adventurers is going to have? Hmm… that gives me a campaign idea…
If you want to run an all-evil campaign, there are two things I think you need to consider. 1st: How do you keep the players from turning on each other? How do you get them to work together?
There is a couple of ways I’ve dealt with this in the past, the first was I made all the characters nice and powerful, giving them each their own minions, realms and castles, and expected them to politically maneuver themselves. It turned into a bloody all out war. By separating the players (this was an online game) they didn’t have to work together… and all the player’s actions were filtered through me… I didn’t have to try and run a game where they were a party of adventurers.
Another way I handled it was I made all the characters evil, but they worked for the BBEG. In this game everyone was pretty much a bumbling 1st level minion working for the BBEG; which pretty much kept them in-line. They kept running their characters like the minions in the movie Legend. To which, I played the situation up for them; where they would have to figure out how to steal stuff from under the noses of clerics and paladins of a church that usually ranged from level 7 to 16.
2nd: How do you keep your players occupied?
Just as you have to keep your ‘good’ characters occupied by having evil monsters pop up for them to bash on, you also have to consider the fact that your evil characters aren’t going to be particularly motivated to do stuff. Are they going to look for trouble? Are they going to cause trouble? If your lucky, yes… but chances are, if they didn’t do much when they were playing good characters, what makes you think they are going to motivate themselves when they are evil?
Keep a list of campaign/adventure ideas. You watch a movie… see a commercial… whatever… you get a cool idea. Write it down. Next session, throw a rumour or two about it. Now, if the players go digging… great… if they don’t… retool the idea and use it another time. Sooner or later you’re going to end up with a nice pool of campaign/adventure ideas that you can draw on anytime you need it.
Well, I will give you my own personal views on level power in D&D… personally, I like to look at the numbers and see what is happening… and how capable a character is at any given level.
Whenever I’ve looked at an RPG, I’ve always considered: what can your typical classless NPC do? Given two average NPCs, typically 1st level commoners, what can they do to each other, in a bare-knuckle fight? Well the numbers are pretty easy when you look at D&D. AC 10, BAB +0… so it’s pretty much a 50/50 thing.
Now, how about a 1st level fighter against one of those commoners? Well, an average fighter would have the same strength as the commoner (namely 10), so their BAB would be +1. What does that mean? An increase of +1 or 5% chance to hit. A 55/45 proposition now. Then you could of course look at comparing hit points and AC and all that. But you get a general idea of how much better ‘classed’ average character is against a NPC or non-classed character.
Then I try to look at how much a character progresses over a series of levels in combat and in skills. Personally, I think they give out way too few skill points, but taking the RAW (rules as written) a character will be skilled in a handful of skills (if they bother to concentrate on a handful of class skills, and keep putting points into it). Now, given the fact that an average labourer is going to want to be skilled enough in their profession that most ‘average’ tasks for them are going to be DC 15… then they are going to want their skill high enough that they aren’t failing all the time. Of course, people say ‘yeah, but what about taking 10 or 20?’. Well, that’s fine… but let me show you how I look at it…
Imagine if you will a cobbler. Now being a cobbler, do you think someone who has say… 4 ranks (at 1st level) of Profession (Cobbling) is an accomplished and skilled tradesman? Looking at the numbers alone… if this person isn’t ‘challenged’, or isn’t trying to make Masterwork shoes, he’s going to have to ‘roll’ an 11 or higher to hit that DC of 15 on an ‘average’ task. Are you going to go to a mechanic that successful at his daily tasks 45% of the time? No. You want an accomplished, skilled worker who can deal with an average task 100% of the time. -- Even if our cobbler was taking 20, it still means that he’s failing 55% of the time, driving his costs up and up.
So, you want someone who is able to hit a DC of 15 pretty much 90-95% of the time. That means having skill ranks of 14 or 15, which in my book equates to around level 10 or 11. Because by the time you’ve reached level 8, hopefully you’ve put a few more points into your primary stat, which in the case of our cobbler; I would hope he picked intelligence. I can assume that every average person has stats in the 9-10 range… I don’t have to worry about stat bonuses.
Plus, look at the monsters that you have to face… the situations that have to be resolve around level 10. By this time a characters skill, intellectual and combative, are such that they are capable of dealing with most situations. I don’t buy into the idea that most NPCs are level 1-3. For me, levels 1-3 equate to being a junior apprentice. 4-6 middle grade apprentice, 7-9 graduate student/apprentice or journeyman. Level 10 is where I think anyone should be considered a master in their given trade or occupation. So for me, if I’m going to have the party meet a capable average merchant, in a pinch, for me… he starts at level 10. – Shocked the hell out of one of my players who thought he would just strong-arm a merchant into giving him a set of swords for free. It was fun watching a 15th level merchant beat the crap out of a 1st level fighter.
I never let the party split between good and evil, unless I want them to fight one another. Either they are all good, or they are all evil. I don’t let anyone play the ‘evil thief’ in a party of clerics, paladins, and a morally ambiguous wizard. Would you allow one of your ‘friends’ to steal from you? Would you allows one of your friends to commit crimes that you may be charged as an accessory for? Numerous times I’ve had people try and pull that stunt in a game I was playing… ”The kender has what appears to be your dagger, and he’s cleaning his fingernails with it… oh… and yes… your dagger is missing.” Oh? Really? Well, my paladin walks up to the kender, asks to see the dagger… and if he gives it back, declares he’s a thief and attempts to kill him. Why should you treat a party member any differently than a NPC thief?
Amazing Triangle
Explorer
The thing about every town looking and feeling the same is easy to fix. Create holidays, fairs, or town events.
I did this with a forge town that sold all its weapons at a discount. Gave me a great opportunity to hit them with level 3 rogues that they can't see. A thrown dagger within 30ft still get sneak attack damage, but in a crowd of people rogues get a huge hide bonus.
Emailing the players a newsletter with happenings and "side-quests" these can be people going missing or someone looking for adventurers. These can be single stand alone adventures or adventures with slight clues to your bigger plot, stuff that is helpful but not necessary. This way you reward your players for doing side adventures but don't punish them for not doing them.
Another thing if they start at 5th level they are actually at the same level as most Captains in the army. Treat them that way. They are important.
Every town, every encounter, everything that happens is different. Make the towns sprawl differently, make the people react to them differently. Some towns HATE adventurers for they do nothing but cost towns money. Not all towns allow the free use of or carrying of weapons, magic items, wearing a certain color, or eating in a certain direction. No monster is ever the same add a new template, change its tactics, or change what it eats. No NPC is ever the same, scars, personality, or even weapon choice (pick a scythe, glaive, or 2 bladed sword.)
I have used all of these things in my games to make my players feel a part of the world to immerse them in it. I even gave them an email just like all the others when they were in a dungeon. It said "You are in a cave sure is mossy in here."
Here is a website to check out that has a lot of tips:
[link]http://www.roleplayingtips.com/index.php[/link]
Like this one on evil characters:
[sblock]5 Tips To Creating A Truly Evil Villain
1. Numerous, Non-Lethal Attacks
My new villain does not have the resources to completely wipe out the character party and still keep her other plots and plans going. So, like the mosquito, she is going to use many non-lethal attacks upon exposed areas to drive the characters as far away as possible.
Examples of her intended attacks?
* Use her minions to destroy weaker allies (i.e. those 0 level villagers the characters seem to love so much)
* Attack the henchmen so the party must carry its own stuff
* Prevent the PCs from getting rest (and therefore healing) at night (i.e. strange noises, ambushes, forest fires...)
2. Expected Surprise Attacks
Meaning, the players will know she's out there, but they won't know when or where her next attack will be until she's already drawn a pint of blood.
More examples:
* Bribe immoral villagers and friends to betray the PCs
* Spread nasty rumors about the characters so they cannot convalesce in nearby villages or towns (i.e. they carry the plague, murderous troublemakers, seeking young daughters for wives)
* Send sneaky minions to poison the PCs food
* Endear herself to the PCs' friends and family
3. Make the PCs Do Things They Don't Want To
How many of us enjoy slopping on Off! and other chemicals? Or what about sitting inside behind screen doors on hot summer nights?
My villain is going to earn the party's eternal enmity just by forcing them to change their plans, modify their behavior and do things they don't want to.
Examples:
* Block paths and roads with fallen trees
* Flood the PCs' village by damming a nearby river
* Cause the PCs to post extra guards at night
* Make the PCs check all food and provisions for tampering
4. Create An Annoying Itch Afterwards
Imagine how you would feel if your worst enemy performed some heroic deed and saved your friends and all you heard from them forever after is how "so and so is such a great person" and how "so and so is so brave and beautiful"?
What would you do if you found that your trusty steed has been permanently marked or branded with insults about you, in bright white paint on its rump?
It wouldn't take much for my villain to cast a single spell and shape the stone of a local mountain into a likeness of herself to remind everybody how great she is. That would itch!
5. Lethal Danger To The PCs Without Risk to the Villain
Mosquitoes potentially carry deadly diseases. That element of risk turns them into true villains. And, so what if you kill one? There's a thousand more with empty bellies buzzing closer...
It's the same with my new villain. She has a small horde of minions whose lives she is perfectly willing to throw away. She has also done her research and knows that it is against the morality of the PCs to kill her in cold blood. Her style is to work in the background and let her flunkies do her dirty work. This means she can live in the same village as the PCs, go to the same parties and flaunt her presence without risk of retaliation. That's evil![/sblock]
Enjoy!!
I did this with a forge town that sold all its weapons at a discount. Gave me a great opportunity to hit them with level 3 rogues that they can't see. A thrown dagger within 30ft still get sneak attack damage, but in a crowd of people rogues get a huge hide bonus.
Emailing the players a newsletter with happenings and "side-quests" these can be people going missing or someone looking for adventurers. These can be single stand alone adventures or adventures with slight clues to your bigger plot, stuff that is helpful but not necessary. This way you reward your players for doing side adventures but don't punish them for not doing them.
Another thing if they start at 5th level they are actually at the same level as most Captains in the army. Treat them that way. They are important.
Every town, every encounter, everything that happens is different. Make the towns sprawl differently, make the people react to them differently. Some towns HATE adventurers for they do nothing but cost towns money. Not all towns allow the free use of or carrying of weapons, magic items, wearing a certain color, or eating in a certain direction. No monster is ever the same add a new template, change its tactics, or change what it eats. No NPC is ever the same, scars, personality, or even weapon choice (pick a scythe, glaive, or 2 bladed sword.)
I have used all of these things in my games to make my players feel a part of the world to immerse them in it. I even gave them an email just like all the others when they were in a dungeon. It said "You are in a cave sure is mossy in here."
Here is a website to check out that has a lot of tips:
[link]http://www.roleplayingtips.com/index.php[/link]
Like this one on evil characters:
[sblock]5 Tips To Creating A Truly Evil Villain
1. Numerous, Non-Lethal Attacks
My new villain does not have the resources to completely wipe out the character party and still keep her other plots and plans going. So, like the mosquito, she is going to use many non-lethal attacks upon exposed areas to drive the characters as far away as possible.
Examples of her intended attacks?
* Use her minions to destroy weaker allies (i.e. those 0 level villagers the characters seem to love so much)
* Attack the henchmen so the party must carry its own stuff
* Prevent the PCs from getting rest (and therefore healing) at night (i.e. strange noises, ambushes, forest fires...)
2. Expected Surprise Attacks
Meaning, the players will know she's out there, but they won't know when or where her next attack will be until she's already drawn a pint of blood.
More examples:
* Bribe immoral villagers and friends to betray the PCs
* Spread nasty rumors about the characters so they cannot convalesce in nearby villages or towns (i.e. they carry the plague, murderous troublemakers, seeking young daughters for wives)
* Send sneaky minions to poison the PCs food
* Endear herself to the PCs' friends and family
3. Make the PCs Do Things They Don't Want To
How many of us enjoy slopping on Off! and other chemicals? Or what about sitting inside behind screen doors on hot summer nights?
My villain is going to earn the party's eternal enmity just by forcing them to change their plans, modify their behavior and do things they don't want to.
Examples:
* Block paths and roads with fallen trees
* Flood the PCs' village by damming a nearby river
* Cause the PCs to post extra guards at night
* Make the PCs check all food and provisions for tampering
4. Create An Annoying Itch Afterwards
Imagine how you would feel if your worst enemy performed some heroic deed and saved your friends and all you heard from them forever after is how "so and so is such a great person" and how "so and so is so brave and beautiful"?
What would you do if you found that your trusty steed has been permanently marked or branded with insults about you, in bright white paint on its rump?
It wouldn't take much for my villain to cast a single spell and shape the stone of a local mountain into a likeness of herself to remind everybody how great she is. That would itch!
5. Lethal Danger To The PCs Without Risk to the Villain
Mosquitoes potentially carry deadly diseases. That element of risk turns them into true villains. And, so what if you kill one? There's a thousand more with empty bellies buzzing closer...
It's the same with my new villain. She has a small horde of minions whose lives she is perfectly willing to throw away. She has also done her research and knows that it is against the morality of the PCs to kill her in cold blood. Her style is to work in the background and let her flunkies do her dirty work. This means she can live in the same village as the PCs, go to the same parties and flaunt her presence without risk of retaliation. That's evil![/sblock]
Enjoy!!
Herobizkit
Adventurer
If your players are new, starting them at level 5 probably isn't a great plan. By level 5, many players will have gotten the feel for their characters' abilities and will probably be working towards a prestige class. If a new player takes the 5th level character from the start, he has that many more skills, feats, abilities, and combat option to learn before he becomes comfrotable in that character's shoes... and if he doesn't LIKE the character, he'll just have to do it again...
A high-powered suggestion would be to consider the Gestalt rules as seen on www.d20srd.org and in the UNearthed Arcana; these allow for a sort of simultaneous multi-classing of two classes but taking the best options of each. For n00bs, the wealth of options might bog them down, but at least they can tackle the options one level at a time.
Monster challenges can be simple, or you can simply just drop whatever and see how it goes. Some players might try and beat an apparently unbeatable monster before they realize that they're all toast... many players get caught up in the fighting and forget that running is usually an option. IF the DM's allow the PC's to escape more often than not, then they just might consider running to fight another day.
In short, though, the monster challenge ratings go something like this:
Assuming a party of 4, the CR of an encounter is based on the ability of a party of 4 to defeat the enemy/enemies with a minimum expenditure of resources (HP and healing, ammunition, spells cast etc.)
So, a party of 4 standard 1st-level characters has an ECL of 1. A "vanilla" orc (one that is used exactly as written in the MM) has a challenge rating of 1/2. This means that 2 orcs, with a total CR of 1 (1/2 + 1/2), is a fair challenge for the party in the example. The more orcs you add, the tougher the fight becomes. If you want the PCs to sweat, it might be okay to test them up to an ECL of the PC's average level +2. Six orcs, or one ogre (CR 3) could give this party a go, and might even beat them all, but the PC's could have a fighting chance if they approached their enemy carefully and intelligently.
If you have access to d20 Modern, I prefer to use their method of calcualting CR over the standard DMG way; it just seems simpler to me.
A high-powered suggestion would be to consider the Gestalt rules as seen on www.d20srd.org and in the UNearthed Arcana; these allow for a sort of simultaneous multi-classing of two classes but taking the best options of each. For n00bs, the wealth of options might bog them down, but at least they can tackle the options one level at a time.
Monster challenges can be simple, or you can simply just drop whatever and see how it goes. Some players might try and beat an apparently unbeatable monster before they realize that they're all toast... many players get caught up in the fighting and forget that running is usually an option. IF the DM's allow the PC's to escape more often than not, then they just might consider running to fight another day.
In short, though, the monster challenge ratings go something like this:
Assuming a party of 4, the CR of an encounter is based on the ability of a party of 4 to defeat the enemy/enemies with a minimum expenditure of resources (HP and healing, ammunition, spells cast etc.)
So, a party of 4 standard 1st-level characters has an ECL of 1. A "vanilla" orc (one that is used exactly as written in the MM) has a challenge rating of 1/2. This means that 2 orcs, with a total CR of 1 (1/2 + 1/2), is a fair challenge for the party in the example. The more orcs you add, the tougher the fight becomes. If you want the PCs to sweat, it might be okay to test them up to an ECL of the PC's average level +2. Six orcs, or one ogre (CR 3) could give this party a go, and might even beat them all, but the PC's could have a fighting chance if they approached their enemy carefully and intelligently.
If you have access to d20 Modern, I prefer to use their method of calcualting CR over the standard DMG way; it just seems simpler to me.
Nuclear Platypus
First Post
Another possibility for bumping up the power levels would be using the Anime d20 SRD (aka BESM d20).
