D&D 3.x Problems with 3.5 Power Attack?

[med stud]

Is it anyone who has played with the new power attack and can answer if they think its good or not?

 

[Yeoman]

Is it anyone who has played with the new power attack and can answer if they think its good or not?

We've been using it since the books came in. It doesn't seem a whole lot better or worse to us. That's just our experience though.

 

[sithramir]

I use it. Its not that overbalanced as you usually miss anyone with decent ac while power attacking to get enough that it'd be a lot of damage.

Its a bit powerful at lower levels for fighters (and the casters suffer) but this is the whole point. When its higher levels the fighters are happy to even do something worthwhile when the casters are flinging death spells and fireballs and lightning, etc around all day.

So good at lower levels, just a bit more balancing for higher levels.

Still insane in some reguards because a half orc 22l str greatsword wielding barbarian/ftr with specialization and power attack can do some amazing swings. But he still is taking a whacking back and not outdoing a lightning bolt.

 

[Cyraneth]

Wow... that's one of the most unsupported statements I've ever read on this board.
(a guy after my own heart )

How does an effective fighter take away the palpable things that wizards, clerics, or rogues do?
(BTW: all those classes have things they can do out of combat - a fighter doesn't)

I don't see you sticking up for the fighter-types over in the Scorching Ray thread, or the Eldritch Knight thread, or the Ray of Enfeeblement thread, crying out that a combat-effective wizard is infringing on the ONLY thing the fighter can do.

What palpable things? We're talking D&D. Combat is half the game, after all. A rogue that sets up a fight between his villains and outwits them that way is much more impressive than a fighter that simply pounds them to the ground, but unfortunately also less often heard of. Everything about creatures and items is pretty much about being good in combat. Some creatures are good diplomats, or merchants, or craftsmen, and some items grant practical abilities like flight and skills in etiquette and gourmet, but ultimately most are just up for a pounding or increasing one's "poundability".

I didn't want to say the fighter would take out all the fun, just some of it, and combat usually is the time where the fighter (both player and character) is most active, and most other players slump a bit into their chairs, letting the fighters do the work.

Merely my observations, opinions, and suggestions, though.

- Cyraneth

 

[Darkness]

If the feat proves to be an ogre-slayer, the melee classes might take over the field of battle entirely, only needing a wizard to create magic items, a cleric to buff, and a rogue not at all...

Sleep is a 1st-level spell. Assuming an Int 15 caster, the ogre (Will save +1) will make its save on a 12+, or just 45% of the time. After that, CDG it.

Works for me.

 

[Rashak Mani]

Seems overpowered to me... even if fighters dont have buff spells anymore. In 3.0 it might have been neat to overcome DR that could be pretty absurd with certain creatures. Damage Resistance now seems much more balanced and you get mostly 5 and 10 DR... not the old 15-20 DR.

I think my DM is putting it to x1.5 instead of x2 to start with... but we havent "playtested" it yet.

Barbarians and Enlarge spell will make a x2 Power Attack too good to be true.

 

[Darkness]

Seems overpowered to me... even if fighters dont have buff spells anymore. In 3.0 it might have been neat to overcome DR that could be pretty absurd with certain creatures. Damage Resistance now seems much more balanced and you get mostly 5 and 10 DR... not the old 15-20 DR.

Note, however, that greater magic weapon was so ubiquituous in 3.0 that most of the time DR was overcome automatically anyway and so, didn't really matter.

Barbarians and Enlarge spell will make a x2 Power Attack too good to be true.

Because their weapon will do more damage (e.g., greataxe: 1d12 to 3d6) and also because of the 10' Reach, you mean? (Compared to that, the +2 Str is just a neat side-effect.)

 

[Cyraneth]

Sleep is a 1st-level spell. Assuming an Int 15 caster, the ogre (Will save +1) will make its save on a 12+, or just 45% of the time. After that, CDG it.

Works for me.

Agreed. That is a useful tactic, but that's still a 45% risk that you'll end up dead instead. Most likely less than what a 1st-level fighter might expect when facing an ogre, but still. I was merely using ogre as an example.

- Cyraneth

 

[Darkness]

Yeah, I know that the ogre's just an example.

... still a 45% risk that you'll end up dead instead. Most likely less than what a 1st-level fighter might expect when facing an ogre ...

The fighter's risk, depending on tactics, might be even higher than that.

An ogre has 10' reach and a high enough attack bonus (+8) to hit the fighter rather easily, as well as the damage (2d8+7) to drop him (or any 1st-level character, for that matter).
And a 1st-level fighter (or barbarian or...) would have a hard time doing the ogre in (AC 16, 29 hp) before being slain by the monster.

'course, an ogre is really an opponent for a 3rd-level party anyway; 1st-level characters going up against one should expect heavy casualties.
But whether 1st or 3rd level - a sorcerer or wizard has a chance of ca. 55% of defeating the ogre in one round; melee combatants have to struggle for quite a bit longer than that.

Example: half-orc Bbn3, Str 22 (due to rage; 16+2race base), mw greatsword, WF - greatsword, Power Attack.
This Bbn has Attack +11, Dmg 2d6+9.
Normal attack: Hit on 5+ (80% chance), damage 2d6+9 (average of 16 points, or 55% of ogre's total)
Power attack +1: Hit on 6+ (75% chance), damage 2d6+11 (average of 18 points, or 62% of ogre's total)
Power attack +2: Hit on 7+ (70% chance), damage 2d6+13 (average of 20 points, or 69% of ogre's total)
Power attack +3: Hit on 8+ (65% chance), damage 2d6+15 (average of 22 points, or 76% of ogre's total)

And unless you put an 18 in Strength or have any useful magic items, that's about as bad as it can get at 3rd level (using only PHB races, at least).

'course, critical hits can change things very much; I once saw a 1st-level orc Barbarian (Str 22, or 26 while raging) take out an advanced (to 8 HD) barbazu in one blow (using only a greataxe and 1 pt. of D&D 3.0 Power Attack). He didn't have a magic weapon, so the barbazu's DR of 20/+2 counted.
(Note: The barbazu was at <10 hp already but the character's total damage was higher than the barbazu's hp while unwounded.)

Come to think of it, ogres with Power Attack would be quite nasty.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Come to think of it, ogres with Power Attack would be quite nasty.

Ogres have a BAB of +3, and get a total of +8 to hit with their clubs.

Against an AC 18 opponent, which seems reasonable, we're looking at:

Normal attack:
55% chance to hit, 2d8 + 7 damage, 20/x2 crit
.55 * (9 + 7) * 1.05 = 9.24 expected damage per round

Power Attack for 1:
50% chance to hit, 2d8 + 9 damage, 20/x2 crit
.50 * (9 + 9) * 1.05 = 9.45 expected damage per round

Power Attack for 2:
45% chance to hit, 2d8 + 11 damage, 20/x2 crit
.45 * (9 + 11) * 1.05 = 9.45 expected damage per round

Power Attack for 3:
.40 * (9 + 13) * 1.05 = 9.24 expected damage per round

So the optimal Power Attack is either 1 or 2, and it increases expected per-round damage by .21 hit points. Woooo.