Problems with firearms?

[Quasqueton]

I just looked through some of those Bullet Points. Something that stood out to me as an example of how screwed their thinking is:

Firing both barrels of a double-barrel shotgun: -2 attack, +1 dice damage. Huh?!

I can accept only a 50% increase in damage, but why a -2 on the attack? Even if this is for game balance, do they not think that holding a now empty weapon is balance enough?

Quasqueton

 

[Ranger REG]

I take to y'all dont prescribe to the fact that burst fire (or burst setting) have nothing to do with limiting the wasting of ammos, huh?

 

[Quasqueton]

I take to y'all dont prescribe to the fact that burst fire (or burst setting) have nothing to do with limiting the wasting of ammos, huh?

Technically, it does have to do with limiting the waste of ammo. When firing on automatic, you get a diminishing return on the number of bullets fired (with rifles and such). After the first few rounds, the following bullets go wild. It is the first few rounds that score and are useful.

But a shooter can easily waste ammo even with the burst "limiter". Hell, you can waste ammo with a single-shot weapon.

Quasqueton

 

[deltadave]

IMHO guns are too easy to hit with and don't do enough damage when they do hit. As it is now, on average swords do more damage than guns do, which I believe to be totally implausible.

I have house ruled that firearms all have an automatic -4 to hit and that they use 1 more of the next smaller die type for damage (ie - 2d6 becomes 3d4, 2d8 becomes 3d6).

Also I've gotten rid of the auto fire rule as it exists currently and made a new one. The purpose of auto fire is to supress enemy movement so any character can designate an arc of 30 degrees that is their 'beaten zone' until their next action. Anyone not behind cover or moving thru in the beaten zone at any point during the round must make a reflex save at dc20 (-2 on the DC per range increment past the first) or be shot. Beaten zones may overlap and a save must be made for each one. One round of autofire uses 10 rounds for most weapons. Rotary cannon and other high rate of fire weapons have a higher dc and use more ammo. The auto fire feat is unchanged.

the effect of this has been to have the players designate overwatch teams and maneuver teams just like real world tactics. Often they will move in bounds, with characters moving between each other to the point of overlap in the fire patterns and then starting their own auto fire.

YMMV

Dave

 

[Bagpuss]

Basic autofire in Modern works as half line-effect, and half-area effect. Think about this: you have to hit AC 10 to use it, (AC 10 with -4 penalty for most people trying it), and cover is a real issue. Firing into a crowd of people is likely GOING to hit someone instead of reaching its intended target. Only then is the reflex save applied. So, under normal autofire, I'm going to have to hit a square that's effectively AC 14, and if any targets are between me and the square, then the provide cover to the square I'm aiming for. If I miss, but hit the cover... Innocent bystanders go bye-bye.

Okay logic states that, but where in the D20 Modern rules does it actually say that? As far as the rules are concerned Autofire is just another Area attack and works like other area attacks. As long as you can see the centre of the target point cover doesn't come into it.

 

[Bagpuss]

I just looked through some of those Bullet Points. Something that stood out to me as an example of how screwed their thinking is:

Firing both barrels of a double-barrel shotgun: -2 attack, +1 dice damage. Huh?!

I can accept only a 50% increase in damage, but why a -2 on the attack? Even if this is for game balance, do they not think that holding a now empty weapon is balance enough?

Quasqueton

Or reducing your damage potential to 3/4 of what it could have been.

 

[Krieg]

And as others have mentioned above, the autofire rule makes it look like machine gunners always fire at the ground around the targets' feet.

We like to call it a "beaten zone".

(Hopefully there is at least one 0331 or equivalent who gets that one! )

 

[Quasqueton]

We like to call it a "beaten zone".

Oh, a machine gun is actually artillery (indirect fire)? Well, that explains it.

Quasqueton

 

[SSquirrel]

GURPS? Hell, ROLE MASTER!
All those tables, charts, rules. Combat takes 30 minutes a round but it's realistic!!

Combat can be quite a bit faster if all the characters have copies of their own charts for all of their weapons. Roll, look, read, info notated. Next.

With our group tho, we had 8 characters and the GM loved to throw big groups at us so 30 minutes for a round was LUCKY

Also for those who don't like d20 Modern's guns, maybe the CoCd20 gun rules? Haven't compared them but I know you can get different damages with different ammo including less vs armored and more vs unarmored with hollow point. CoCd20 lists name/caliber/damage/crit/action type/capacity/loading method/range/rate/country/year. Very good descriptions of all of the weapons as well.

Hagen

 

[Ranger REG]

Technically, it does have to do with limiting the waste of ammo. When firing on automatic, you get a diminishing return on the number of bullets fired (with rifles and such). After the first few rounds, the following bullets go wild. It is the first few rounds that score and are useful.

So, when you don't have Burst Fire feat, then only the first bullet count (resolve as a normal attack) and the remaining two or four bullets are wasted (i.e., go wild).

With Burst Fire feat, you have a greater degree of control, thus you do more damage.

But a shooter can easily waste ammo even with the burst "limiter". Hell, you can waste ammo with a single-shot weapon.

Yeah, if you miss your attack roll.

But what I'm getting from this thread is that, saturating an area should guarantee greater damage. Ergo, autofire rules is useless. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know if I should be lucky that I'm not a gun-bunny. Does the additional stats make things like handguns all equal or will one be better than all the rest, making gun-bunnies and straight role-players just pick THAT one (or go out of his way to acquire it through the black market, regardless of home region)? I'm wary that too much details will inevitably leads to rating each handguns (for instance), making it obvious that players will choose that over the other.