Problems with firearms?

[WaterRabbit]

That's the big problem - any sensible system should allow multiple shots vs the same target in one round. The best systems use a Recoil or similar score to limit this vs the firer's strength - eg give a pistol recoil 2 per d6 dmg, so recoil 4 for a 2d6 bullet, then STR 12 could fire 3 with no penalty, or 4 at 16-12 = a -4 penalty, etc.

Ok, using the same character as before:
5th level character
S – 12, D – 17 (18), C – 10, I – 10, W – 10, Ch – 10

Using 4 recoil versus AC 15 with a 2d6 weapon including Point Blank Shot.

Shot 1 (4) = .8 * 8 + .8 * 8 * 0.05 = 6.72
Shot 2 (8) = .8 * 8 + .8 * 8 * 0.05 = 6.72
Shot 3 (12) = .8 * 8 + .8 * 8 * 0.05 = 6.72
Shot 4 (16) = .6 * 8 + .6 * 8 * 0.05 = 5.04
Shot 5 (20) = .4 * 8 + .4 * 8 * 0.05 = 3.36
Shot 6 (24) = .2 * 8 + .2 * 8 * 0.05 = 1.68
Shot 7 (28) = 0.05 * 8 + 0.05 * 8 * 0.05 = 0.42

Total Ave. Damage = 30.66

So how would a system like this use feats like Double Tap, Burst Fire and/or autofire weapons without getting into rolling huge handfuls of dice ?

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I think we're using mathematics to cloud a very central issue: "The Myth Of The Gun".

"I can slash a helluva lot more than once with a sword in a single round, too. So obviously melee weapons are totally broken because I could ninja-slice you into seventeen pieces with my 1000-fold-steel katana in six seconds."

It's not real life. It isn't close. The human organism is a highly variable organism. Sometimes you pop a guy with a .22 and he's dead, sometimes you shoot him 8 times with a 9mm and he gets close enough to slice you with a kitchen knife and you bleed out before the ambulance arrives. It happens. It's give and take.

To make it a game, rules are invented. The rules are weighed and balanced to be fun to play.

"But guns are so COOL." Well, some people think so, yes. That doesn't mean unless they do a bazillion points of damage a round more than anything else in the world that the rules haven't made them cool enough. They have utility. So do melee weapons. I think the balance is such that not alot of people want to play melee characters, and I think those that do should be effective in their own way. They'll still have to take a MDT save more often than not on a double-tap from your average firearm weilded by the guy with cover, so, it works out fine for me.

In the end, play the game the way YOU want to play it. If you think guns are way cool and soooo deadly that they have to work better than anybody with a sword, then sure, make up some rules for Recoil and Strength and everything else. The rules aren't broken or bad because they don't have them. A group of people decided that they weren't needed ... those people took the time to playtest and use the rules and pretty well balance them. I don't feel like balancing house rules to make guns more lethal ... I've played in games that do and I didn't find them entertaining at all. That's my outlook and why I don't do it.

--fje

 

[WaterRabbit]

I think we're using mathematics to cloud a very central issue: "The Myth Of The Gun".

I believe that math, specifically statistics, are fairly neutral and help provide clarity on many issues – but perhaps that is just my analytical background. I know statistics can be skewed, but I consciously try to avoid that.

The observation I have made is that all ranged weapons (bows, crossbows, firearms, thrown weapons) become much less dangerous once a character has reached 3rd level in d20 games in general. I have used statistics to help me determine if that observation has any merit.

"I can slash a helluva lot more than once with a sword in a single round, too. So obviously melee weapons are totally broken because I could ninja-slice you into seventeen pieces with my 1000-fold-steel katana in six seconds."

I think that we all recognize that you could slash at least 4 times if not more in the d20 system, but only at high levels of expertise. I think that we also realize there is some abstraction to the system. I don’t believe a system in which we throw more dice per attack round is better – it is probably more tedious to play.

It's not real life. It isn't close. The human organism is a highly variable organism. Sometimes you pop a guy with a .22 and he's dead, sometimes you shoot him 8 times with a 9mm and he gets close enough to slice you with a kitchen knife and you bleed out before the ambulance arrives. It happens. It's give and take.

If there is any “Myth of the Gun” it is this one. How often do either of these situations happen ? Could you provide an estimate – 1 in 100, 1 in 1000 ? If you have an estimate do you have a source for it ? It also happens that people fall from airplanes thousands of feet above the surface and live – without injury no less. However, I can only vaguely recall of two occurrences.

I am personally not interested in the “Myth of the Gun”. I am looking at two weapon systems in the game. The ranged weapon rules as is would certainly be much more useful if most combats took place at range. However, my experience has been to the contrary. In all games I have been a participant, combat takes place at 60 feet or less most of the time. Perhaps 10% of the time it has taken place at more than 100 yards. It is the same reason vehicle feats are not that useful. How often does vehicle combat really occur ? Once in every four session if you are lucky.

To make it a game, rules are invented. The rules are weighed and balanced to be fun to play.

"But guns are so COOL." Well, some people think so, yes. That doesn't mean unless they do a bazillion points of damage a round more than anything else in the world that the rules haven't made them cool enough. They have utility. So do melee weapons. I think the balance is such that not alot of people want to play melee characters, and I think those that do should be effective in their own way. They'll still have to take a MDT save more often than not on a double-tap from your average firearm weilded by the guy with cover, so, it works out fine for me.

Unfortunately, the statistics don’t bear you out. A 5th level character firing at AC 15 using Double Tap does 8.33 points of damage on average (with a 2d6 weapon at point blank range, 10.5 for a 2d8 weapon). Hardly forcing MDT saves more often than not.

Let’s change the situation. Your character is in a room facing a strong guy with a katana and a fast guy with a MAC Ingram M10 machine pistol. There is lots of cover in the room but anywhere you go in the room the melee guy can get at your character. By spending your last action point you can remove one of your opponents. Which one should you remove ? That is the question I initially set out to answer.

In the end, play the game the way YOU want to play it. If you think guns are way cool and soooo deadly that they have to work better than anybody with a sword, then sure, make up some rules for Recoil and Strength and everything else. The rules aren't broken or bad because they don't have them. A group of people decided that they weren't needed ... those people took the time to playtest and use the rules and pretty well balance them. I don't feel like balancing house rules to make guns more lethal ... I've played in games that do and I didn't find them entertaining at all. That's my outlook and why I don't do it.

--fje

I am sorry but this argument does not hold water with me. In my experience, most things that have been designed by committee are usually worse than what one or two people create. And just as obviously there would have been no need for d20 3E or d20 modern for that matter if 2E and its spin-offs were the be all end all. Games constantly evolve – that is their nature. It is the nature of gamers to try and find better ways to do things while still keeping them fun.

The other thing I was trying to show here is that the statement “guns are the great equalizer” is not true for d20 modern IF a melee character has the ability to place the gun wielding character into melee combat. Hiding behind cover does not help that much against someone using a melee weapon. And because of the non-simultaneous nature of combat it is much more likely that a melee character will be causing MDTs. Now there are many, many reasons not to play a melee based character in d20 modern. However, not all NPCs are so accommodating – especially if you play Urbane Arcana or some other modern/fantasy blend.

To tell the truth I would be much more interested in a system that did a dn+n for firearms than including recoil or other such rules. This would raise the average damage from 7 to 10.5 (for a d6 based weapon) while keeping the maximum damage the same and the number of dice thrown in a round the same. It would also keep combat somewhat abstract while placing ranged weapons on an even footing with melee weapons – not superior but even. This thread is titled “Problems with firearms?” after all is it not ?

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

To tell the truth I would be much more interested in a system that did a dn+n for firearms than including recoil or other such rules. This would raise the average damage from 7 to 10.5 (for a d6 based weapon) while keeping the maximum damage the same and the number of dice thrown in a round the same. It would also keep combat somewhat abstract while placing ranged weapons on an even footing with melee weapons – not superior but even.

Maybe 2dX + ½BAB? It would have little affect at low lvls, but make almost certain that high lvl PCs take out the mooks. Plus, it would force MDT save from the PCs more often, when facing high lvl opponents, urging them to use caution. Especially if the MDT save was 15 + 2 per 5 points of damage over MDT.
It might solve a bit of the 'not deadly enough' issues some people have? I don't know.

Edit: Thinking of it, I really like this idea (yours, I mean.) But how would it fit in with double tap, burst etc.?

 

[WaterRabbit]

Edit: Thinking of it, I really like this idea (yours, I mean.) But how would it fit in with double tap, burst etc.?

The way I envision it: Double Tap 2dn+n, Burst Fire 3dn+n.

While adding 1/2 BAB to firearms would definitely make them more lethal at higher levels, it seems they might become too powerful. I am just looking at how to make firearms on par with melee weapons.

Also, like many others who have posted here before, autofire seems weird to me. It almost seems like the Strafe feat should be the default autofire action. Strafe covers the same area as autofire (4 5x5x5 cubes). Strafe seem kind of like a why bother type of feat.

Autofire seems to me like it should create a line of effect 5' wide out to the first range bracket. DC=15 reflex save or take a hit. Subtract 2 from the DC for every other range bracket past the first (i.e. DC=5 at range bracket 10) for longarms and heavy weapons. Subtract 2 from the DC for every range bracket for handguns (i.e. machine pistols). Then have a feat that allows the path to be a line of effect 10' wide, same DC=15 reflex save and range modification. And if you want to go really wild have a third feat that allows a cone area, though this would be a bit more complicated.

In either case, a person (friend or foe) has to make a save for each 5' cube they cross. And obviously, if the line of effect hits a barrier it either penetrates, stops, or destroys it as per normal.

Would this make automatic weapons a little more powerful – sure. But there are many ways both in the game and in reality to counter such weapons anyway. Sniper rifles, flash grenades and other types of grenades, armored vehicles, etc. Also, since it is only a 10 round burst, just cap the number of hits at 10 per round.

 

[S'mon]

Ok, using the same character as before:
5th level character
S – 12, D – 17 (18), C – 10, I – 10, W – 10, Ch – 10

Using 4 recoil versus AC 15 with a 2d6 weapon including Point Blank Shot.

Shot 1 (4) = .8 * 8 + .8 * 8 * 0.05 = 6.72
Shot 2 (8) = .8 * 8 + .8 * 8 * 0.05 = 6.72
Shot 3 (12) = .8 * 8 + .8 * 8 * 0.05 = 6.72
Shot 4 (16) = .6 * 8 + .6 * 8 * 0.05 = 5.04
Shot 5 (20) = .4 * 8 + .4 * 8 * 0.05 = 3.36
Shot 6 (24) = .2 * 8 + .2 * 8 * 0.05 = 1.68
Shot 7 (28) = 0.05 * 8 + 0.05 * 8 * 0.05 = 0.42

Total Ave. Damage = 30.66

So how would a system like this use feats like Double Tap, Burst Fire and/or autofire weapons without getting into rolling huge handfuls of dice ?

Burst Fire - each burst (of 3 or 5 rounds) has its own Recoil, say 6; you can roll to hit once per burst with a hit being 1d3 or 1d5 actual hits.

For full autofire area-saturation you can use the d6 system I discussed previously, roll 1d6 per bullet, each 6 is a hit; Recoil is totalled per 10 bullets & if total recoil exceeds STR remove some d6s prior to roll - eg STR 10 firer fires 2 10-round bursts with recoil 8 each, 8x2=16, so 6 in 10 bullets automatically miss, only 8 d6s are actually rolled.

Double Tapping - in the real world double-tapping is used at short range to roughly double the effect of the 2 individual bullet wounds (by creating opposing shock waves within the victim's body). If you want to model it realistically, then it's a Feat where if the firer is within 30' and he hits the target with 2 consecutive shots, the total damage is doubled. I would restrict it to handguns only.

Myth of the gun - as I've advocated previously, a single small-calibre bullet certainly ought to be less damaging on average than a hit by a big melee weapon, composite longbow arrow, & such. Yet it's certainly true that guns are more lethal than melee weapons - in the UK because guns are rare, psychos on killing sprees often have to use katanas or machetes. They rarely kill more than 1-2 people on a spree, whereas those with access to guns often kill a dozen or more. In d20 it's very easy to create a high-level warrior who does enormous damage with a melee weapon, power-attacking et al. The way to do the same with a handgun is to fire a lot of bullets in a short period of time.