Profession/Crafting skills: Why?

I had an adventure where the question of who would succeed to the throne of a faerie realm was settled by each contender choosing a champion for a dance competition, and the one whose champion won was crowned. It could have been poetry, music, or crafting too, depending on the background of the realm in question.
In one of the countries in my campaign, poets, actors and bards and other artists are very honored, and when the party visited they were taking part in the annual festival, acting on stage, and dealing with bards and other artists.

Skill challenge and pure roleplay. Really, skill challenges are far more appropriate than ranks Craft and Profession.

I'm not arguing against having these two elements in the game or that they could not add to the game, but that the implementation in 3e was very poor, to the point of being a hindrance.

NOTE: I was initially very happy with craft and profession, like a lot of 3e rules, they read great.
 

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For you.

I think we have little further basis for discussion here. The game you want to play is not a game I would want to play; I find a game limited to killing things and taking its stuff unsatisfying.

Stop the lying. That is not I you said and you know it.

What is the game you want to play if it does not involve solving some amorphous problem that will involve figuring things out, going places, killing monsters, and/or taking their stuff.

What part of political intrigue requires that you be able to play an instrument or make an axe?

A: None, it has to be specifically ham strung into the campaign by your DM.

1) The DM need not drive it. The profession and craft skills players pick often relate directly to their self realized actions during the game. A character who fancies himself a fletcher will make replacement arrows during the game; a character who has craft(poison) obviously intends to make use of the skill.
Why? This is useless to the game. The game is not rolling to determine whether or not you make arrows and how many you make, that is ridiculous and pointless. You say you can make arrows and you make arrows because its financially inconsequential. Who cares except you? If you are the only one that cares, why does it need to be defined? Just say you make arrows and you make some arrows. Is your DM so anal that he needs to track the 10 GP you are going to save over the course of an adventure where you will gain hundreds of thousands of GP in wealth?

Same with craft(poison). Unless you are looking at getting something for "nothing". [which was already covered by the "just wants to break the game" stipulation that has already been mentioned, specifically with poison you are gaining combat actions which is even more of a problem.]

2) It need not be ridiculous at all. PCs don't exist in a vacuum. The reason for the PCs involvement in the game may be directly informed by the skill, or vice versa. Is it really ridiculous for a character to make use of profession(sailor) during a seafaring game? Or mining skill in a game in which the character is a miner whose co-workers unearth something better left burried. I find your supposition of how these skills are invoked to be at odds with the facts.
Yes i find it ridiculous that a character would make use of the "profession(sailor)" skill during a sea faring game. Because during a seafaring game i would be expecting everyone would be a sailor and how good they were at doing the things that sailors do would be defined by the rest of your skills! No one is going to be sitting around determining how much money they get per week based on their skill, its pointless. Anything else is just abusing synergy bonuses[remember that thing about gaming the system?]

No one needs the sailor profession, you've got an entire set of skills right there that determine how good you are as a sailor, use them.

3) If you are trying to shame me for designing a game to address what players are actually interested in (as evidenced by choices made in character design), you'll have to try harder, because it's a valid and compelling technique.
Nope[also, please stop misrepresenting my position], i am trying to tell you that the design choice that requires said skills is stupid and bad. You can perfectly well address the interests of your characters and their backgrounds without these skills. But there is never, ever a need to roll die for a profession check. There is never, ever, a need to roll a die for a craft check. There is no difference between the DM making a situation where you can use your craft skill and the DM making a situation where you can take advantage of the long lost cousin in your background. In both instances the DM is going out of his way to make the situation conform to your background. In no instances do these situations ever come up in the normal progress of DnD.

Such, if you have the option of "bringing in your background by specific intent of the DM" and "bringing in your background by specific intent of the DM" the option that doesn't involve making your character worse at everything else for no good reason is the ideal mechanical design choice to make for your game.

Do you need to save the world? I'm not talking about a musician class here (though there is de facto one in the core in 1e/2e/3e, BID), or a crafter class or what have you? This is a skill, a minor resource of a character, something that is generally safe to allocate a few points to even accepting that you aren't going to have a critical use for it every game.

That said, are there not other challenges on the road? Can the characters not, for example, find it important to impress the emperor of a foreign nation in order to win his support? That's the stuff good stories and good gaming is made of AFAIAC.
These impressions are not achieved by achieving some random quaternary task that cannot be achieved in the same manner by simply using a different set of skills and then describing it as saying you did it by quaternary task. Its achieved by ANY task that the player so deems. Because of such, what the background is is immaterial, its pointless to be there, use your other skills to define how well you perform the action that you can do because of your background.

E.G. you want to impress an emperor. You want to do it by playing a song, you want to do this because you said you play the lute. Well, you play the lute and now you have a skill challenge regarding your dexterity for finger placement, endurance or athletics for stamina, acrobatics or athletics for flourishes of various sorts, and insight to determine what he wants.

You are making a sword and you can do the same thing. The end result is that you get to use your background in a way to advance the plot just fine. But you don't need the skill to achieve the task, and the skills provided will actually do a better job of describing the action and defining the quality of the end result than a roll of a perform or craft skill will.

Maybe you need to get into a room, but the door is locked. Well you're a blacksmith. So you fool around with the lock and say that you want to craft a key. Well, its your perception or thievery roll that would let you know how to make the key. Boom you make the key, just as if you had picked the lock, though it probably too a bit longer.

Maybe you need to climb a cliff? Well, instead of climbing you want to make some stairs, it will take more time, but you were a carpenter and you're in the forest so you've got wood. Its endurance to get the work done, dungeoneering to make sure the planks are in the right space and wont fall out. History or Nature to select the right wood. Boom, now you've got a skill challenge the entire gang can take part in[someone has to find and collect the wood] and you can make your staircase.

Maybe you need to navigate a channel? History, Perception, Athletics, Nature

Maybe you need to forge the mythical metal into a mytical sword? Athletics, Endurance, Arcana, Religion, Perception. A group without a smith would have to go find one of the proper caliber, which would be whole other skill challenge.

Maybe you need to go down a cliff, but you're a weaver and want to make a parachute? Arcana, History, Perception, Streetwise.

etc etc etc

You don't need these skills.
 
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Skill challenge and pure roleplay. Really, skill challenges are far more appropriate than ranks Craft and Profession.

I'm not arguing against having these two elements in the game or that they could not add to the game, but that the implementation in 3e was very poor, to the point of being a hindrance.

NOTE: I was initially very happy with craft and profession, like a lot of 3e rules, they read great.

As was posted above - a number of people prefer that for quite a number of tasks, you need to be able to do the actual task. Handwaving skills may work for you, but not everyone shares this taste.

When it comes down to performing, I want performers on stage. All the skill challenge rolls of the world will not carry the day if the musician on stage can't carry a tune. Of course they may help - I use a system similar to skill challenges if appropriate - and add some (even hefty) modifiers, but without craft you'll not win a crafting competition in my game, without perform you won't win the bardic challenge.

As far as profession goes - in one of my campaigns, handling an up and coming merchant house is a big part of the game. Profession is very appropriate to reflect this part of a character.
 

I had an adventure where the question of who would succeed to the throne of a faerie realm was settled by each contender choosing a champion for a dance competition, and the one whose champion won was crowned. It could have been poetry, music, or crafting too, depending on the background of the realm in question.
In one of the countries in my campaign, poets, actors and bards and other artists are very honored, and when the party visited they were taking part in the annual festival, acting on stage, and dealing with bards and other artists.

So you created a situation that the players could not possibly succeed at unless they had chosen the right perform skill to put points into?

Why would you ever do that if it was something for your players to participate in if they didn't have that skill?

If it was something for them to watch, why bother having the skill? Are you rolling for your NPCs? Your players must really enjoy that scene...

What is the difference in execution if one of your players had in their background that they were a dancer rather than having the skill points?
 
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As far as profession goes - in one of my campaigns, handling an up and coming merchant house is a big part of the game. Profession is very appropriate to reflect this part of a character.

No its not unless you don't do any roleplaying and just handwave how well you do because of a profession role. That is lame

Bluff, intimidate, diplomacy, history, insight, streetwise, religion, arcana.

Skill challenges based on the challenges that you come across. These are skills that define the broad range of things you can do. use them.

Use them while you are talking to people, negotiating deals, dealing with competitors, ironing out production efficiency problems. Etc etc etc.

"Roll... you manage it well" is not fun, nor is it necessary.
 

As far as profession goes - in one of my campaigns, handling an up and coming merchant house is a big part of the game. Profession is very appropriate to reflect this part of a character.

Again, this is what is so frustrating about this topic to me...

Isn't this handled better by focusing on the specific sub-skills INVOLVED?

Trying to convince the local guild to allow you to setup shop?
Bluff, Knowledge (local), Diplomacy etc....

This isn't a case of a system not being able to do the job quite well. Infact, the 3E skill system by ITSELF can handle the situation better and in much finer detail and give more satisying results if you ditch Profession entirely.

To me, for Profession this ISN"T a 4e vs 3E debate AT ALL. Since for 3E, Profession didn't and actually made the skill system worse (I'm seeing lots of examples of being ignoring KNOWLEDGE.....)

I'm not debating CRAFT at all, (I see points for and against its inclusion) but Profession, that stuck in my craw from the very beginning because of the way it works and how it plays havoc with the REST of the skill system...


re: Astrolabe
Knowledge (Geography) with an Astrolabe providing a circumstance bonus a la Master's tool for lockpicing. Remember, having 5 ranks in Knowledge (Geography) already explicitly gives you a bonus in not getting lost.

re: Fiddler's contest
The question was, how does Profession help you win a Fiddler's contest.

So let's see....

Knowledge (local) provides you with "what music to play"
Perform (guitar) provides you with the ability to play that music

and Profession (guitarist) is about getting the gig?

1. If their's a contest, you already HAVE the gig and
2. This also is Knowledge (local) for finding out what's happening in the city/town/village...
 

Again, this is what is so frustrating about this topic to me...

Isn't this handled better by focusing on the specific sub-skills INVOLVED?

Trying to convince the local guild to allow you to setup shop?
Bluff, Knowledge (local), Diplomacy etc....

For single tasks, sure. But for checking how the character handles the day to day business, if the merchant house is doing generally good or bad this week, how much money comes in from the different parts of the house, profession fits best. And it can easily be part of a big number of skill challenges, opening options for the character.

What's so frustrating about having more options?
 

re: Fiddler's contest
The question was, how does Profession help you win a Fiddler's contest.

So let's see....

Knowledge (local) provides you with "what music to play"
Perform (guitar) provides you with the ability to play that music

and Profession (guitarist) is about getting the gig?

1. If their's a contest, you already HAVE the gig and
2. This also is Knowledge (local) for finding out what's happening in the city/town/village...

If you conside the fiddler's contest as less of a single roll, and more of a skill challenge, then profession (travelling minstrel) can offer more options. It also helps determining how much money was made during downtime, if you do not play out downtime. In the specific fiddler's contest, profession could help by setting up the performance, picking the best spot/time, and so on.

Will there be overlap? Of course. But is that a bad thing?

And when two bards "battle", all other things (Perform, Knowledge) being equal, the one with profession might have an edge.
 

For single tasks, sure. But for checking how the character handles the day to day business, if the merchant house is doing generally good or bad this week, how much money comes in from the different parts of the house, profession fits best. And it can easily be part of a big number of skill challenges, opening options for the character.

What's so frustrating about having more options?


How the house does from day to day business should probably be a direct correlation to how the players handle the challenges for the business. If they do well, the business does well. If they do poorly the business does poorly.

How hard is that rather than making a character make a check and then have a bunch of other stuff the players do be immaterial?

If the game revolves around managing the business then the challenges are the "day to day business". If the game doesn't then the player is off doing something else and there is no reason he should be rolling these checks[and would be hiring someone to manage the business instead].
 

Stop the lying. That is not I you said and you know it.

Lying? That's a pretty stern accusation. Please stop with assumptions of malfeasance; accusations of lying is a good way to escalate hostility in an already heated discussion.

What is the game you want to play if it does not involve solving some amorphous problem that will involve figuring things out, going places, killing monsters, and/or taking their stuff.

Let's examine what you did say...

These problems involve figuring things out, going place, killing monsters, and taking their stuff. Anything that is not involved in that is extraneous and pointless.

Emphasis added. I never objected to the idea that "figuring things out, going places, killing monsters, and/or taking their stuff" is par for the course for a D&D game. I did say that alone insufficient for me. You said, right there, that anything else is extraneous. I'm at a loss at how else to interpret your position.

What part of political intrigue requires that you be able to play an instrument or make an axe?

A: None, it has to be specifically ham strung into the campaign by your DM.

Why? This is useless to the game.

I'm not going to sit here and repeat previous posts. I've already shown one way in which an instrument skill could be important to the political game, and I've already stated I don't see anything wrong in coming up with tasks to accommodate players in what they are interested in doing; applying unflattering labels to it is not going to change my position.

The game is not rolling to determine whether or not you make arrows and how many you make, that is ridiculous and pointless. You say you can make arrows and you make arrows because its financially inconsequential. Who cares except you? If you are the only one that cares, why does it need to be defined? Just say you make arrows and you make some arrows. Is your DM so anal that he needs to track the 10 GP you are going to save over the course of an adventure where you will gain hundreds of thousands of GP in wealth?

I don't run all my games at high levels, and not all my PCs turn every campaign into an economic feasability study... thank goodness. I know plenty of players do, but I stand against that playstyle.

Are your PCs always in civilization where they can get what they want, whenever they want, with no time constraints? If so, I think you are missing out on some good gaming. Earlier you said that games are about solving problems. Survival scenarios are a staple in gaming and one of the quintessential problem solving scenarios. It's all well and good that you could order 100 silver arrows back in Waterdeep, but here, now it could be if you don't come up with some silvered weapons, the werewolf (or worse beastie) is going to take down the town.

Same with craft(poison). Unless you are looking at getting something for "nothing".

If skill points are nothing, then why do object to players allocating them to activities they are interested in having the capability to do.

Skill points aren't "nothing". They are the same resource that let you notice danger, avoid being spotted, and know important facts about creatures you are facing.

Yes i find it ridiculous that a character would make use of the "profession(sailor)" skill during a sea faring game.

Then we really have no more basis for communication. Nothing I say is going to convince you.

Because during a seafaring game i would be expecting everyone would be a sailor

I've addressed this earlier, but to repeat: my practical experience with seafaring games shows this to be false.

No one needs the sailor profession, you've got an entire set of skills right there that determine how good you are as a sailor, use them.

Your right I have something that handles sailor correctly: the profession sailor skill.

As was mentioned earlier by another poster (the Gneech?), profession is meant to cover tasks that don't fall under other skills. A seafaring game might call on you to climb a mast or balance on a deck. But how about securing sails or performing damage control? That's not in the existing skill set.

Nope[also, please stop misrepresenting my position],

I said "if". Feel free to say "no, that's not what I meant". But calling me a liar is not conducive to a reasoned discussion and invites escalating tensions.

You can perfectly well address the interests of your characters and their backgrounds without these skills.

No, not to my satisfaction, you cannot.

But there is never, ever a need to roll die for a profession check. There is never, ever, a need to roll a die for a craft check. There is no difference between the DM making a situation where you can use your craft skill and the DM making a situation where you can take advantage of the long lost cousin in your background.

Yes there is. But you've chosen to label positive player usage, using resources they have paid for with their skill points, as "just wants to break the game". Tarred, feathered, dismissed.

In both instances the DM is going out of his way to make the situation conform to your background. In no instances do these situations ever come up in the normal progress of DnD.

As to sentence 1, not far out of your way, and it's worth it's weight in gold in making characters unique and significant. For #2, my experience differs; player will actively find ways to use skills with little or no DM intervention.

E.G. you want to impress an emperor. You want to do it by playing a song, you want to do this because you said you play the lute. Well, you play the lute and now you have a skill challenge regarding your dexterity for finger placement, endurance or athletics for stamina, acrobatics or athletics for flourishes of various sorts, and insight to determine what he wants.

This is a rephrase of an argument from the last post; my reply hasn't changed: this is inadequate because it fails to models potentially very different competencies.

(snip more examples of the skill system the nature of which we've already seen in prior posts.)

You don't need these skills.

No, you don't need those skills. As already discussed, the lack of character distinction would make these solutions inadequate for me.

So what am I getting here? I'm wrong for wanting something different out of gaming than you? You don't get to dictate what I want out of gaming; it doesn't work that way.
 

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