Profession/Crafting skills: Why?

[Fenes]

True enough, but back to my original point: they're cluttering up my 3e PHB!!! They should have been in the DMG or one of the splat books.

That some people can't stand 2 pages out of 250+ "sacrificed" in order to have more options in the game for others is part of the reason we have edition wars, and complaints about hostility.

I would actually like to see a revamped craft/profession system in the PHBII for 4e. One that does not have the flaws of the 3e system and is silo'd from the core adventuring skills.

I don't like siloing non-combat skills.

 

[Rel]

Not everyone is making spot rolls every 10 minutes. Not everyone feels that putting points into spot instead of perform is worth it. And not everyone feels that having to sacrifice combat effectiveness to be able to do very well in other situations is a bad thing.

It all depends on playstyle, preferences, and the DM.

Absolutely. The trick is that, even though my gaming group gets along pretty well and agrees on certain things (like the fact that rolling the dice with the possibility of failure is interesting) they are not in total lockstep. I'm not going to ask them to choose between guns and butter. I'm telling them that they can shoot their guns and still eat their butter. Just not any and every flavor of butter that they want.

Damn, now I'm getting hungry. Mmmm butter.

 

[Dausuul]

Yeah, I'm going to have to come down in the "Profession is silly" camp. Most of the tasks covered by Profession properly belong to other skills - Streetwise, Diplomacy, et cetera.

I'm with Rel; I would like to see a mechanical system for "background" stuff like Craft, but not purchased out of the same silo that you use to purchase adventuring skills. A separate list of "background skills" might not see much use in the game, but requiring everybody to pick X background skills would encourage players to think about their characters' back stories, and look for opportunities to use those skills.

As for "What if you roll a 1 on your Craft check?" - that's why we have the "take 10" rule. Taking 10 should be the default for crafting. Then your Craft skill simply determines what you do and don't know how to make.

 

[Fenes]

I would actually like to see a mechanical system for "background" stuff like Craft. I just don't think you should be purchasing Craft out of the same silo that you use to purchase adventuring skills. Maybe have a separate list of background skills. They might not see much use in the game, but requiring everybody to pick X background skills would encourage players to think about their characters' back stories, and look for opportunities to use their skills.

If the game is more than dungeon crawling then an adventurer needs more than "adventuring skills" to be effective. Part of my problem with 4E is that it is so fixated on one playstyle.

 

[vagabundo]

That some people can't stand 2 pages out of 250+ "sacrificed" in order to have more options in the game for others is part of the reason we have edition wars, and complaints about hostility.

I have a big problems with the whole of 3e, but this thread is about craft and profession. And I feel they do not add enough - and cause enough confusion - to the character creation process and they should have been cut or moved.

I don't like siloing non-combat skills.

I never said combat: adventuring.

 

[Mallus]

If the game is more than dungeon crawling then an adventurer needs more than "adventuring skills" to be effective.

Sure, but the question is: how many of those need to be represented mechanically in the system.

Part of my problem with 4E is that it is so fixated on one playstyle.

That's true, 4e gives you far more rules for a few specific, styles of play. Just like its predecessors.

 

[Mallus]

I like options, variety, and flexibility in a roleplaying system.

Me too.

I can't take or leave crafting and profession and perform skills in 4E, since they were cut out.

For my paladin/poet PC, I'm using alternating between Diplomacy and Intimidate checks to represent his Dragonborn love poetry (which combines lyricism with thinly-veiled threats of violence).

 

[Zustiur]

[/I]"Roll... you manage it well" is not fun, nor is it necessary.

To you. I get the distinct impression that you feel no-one is able to disagree with you on this issue.
I happen to find that "Roll... you manage it well" is very fun, particularly when it means you're then able to get on with the story instead of playing out 3 hours of dialog that has little or no bearing on the abilities your character actually has.

Craft and profession both have uses within the system as written. The fact that your games apparently ignore that and resolve the issue by player ability instead of character ability is not sufficient reason to alter the rulebook.

re: Fiddler's contest
The question was, how does Profession help you win a Fiddler's contest.

So let's see....

Knowledge (local) provides you with "what music to play"
Perform (guitar) provides you with the ability to play that music

and Profession (guitarist) is about getting the gig?

1. If their's a contest, you already HAVE the gig and
2. This also is Knowledge (local) for finding out what's happening in the city/town/village...

I don't recall Profession guitarist being listed... I don't have 3.5 to hand, but 3.0 certainly doesn't list musician or instrument-ist under profession. That's separated out into perform.

To take the sailor example;
Use rope does not mean you know how to rig a boat.
Diplomacy does not mean you know the difference between port and starboard, or the meaning behind other nautical terms and phrases. It's to do with getting what you want from someone without offending them.
Balance does not mean you're accustomed to sea travel (have sea legs).
Knowledge (geography) does not mention travel at sea, or navigation by stars.
And so on.

The professions fit between the other skills and glue them together, as they should. One thing that would have helped is a synergy statement -
"If you have 5 or more ranks in profession (x), you get a +2 synergy bonus on Diplomacy checks and Gather Information checks when dealing with members of that profession."

I alluded to this up-thread. Knowing a profession, rather than a collection of skills, is highly valuable when dealing with people of that profession, as adventurers do. Particularly when trying to get information from the cook at the castle, or the fisherman who passes near the mysterious island, or the stablehand who works for Lord Badguy.

Think about the work you do IRL. Think about how you feel with talking to customers or clients who do not know what they're talking about in regards to your field of work.
Sure, today's society preaches 'customer first' so we smile and get on with it, but we all groan inside. We're all happier to be helpful with someone who understands what you're telling them. The same therefore applies to NPCs.

The other example I gave was of espionage.
How do you pretend to be a waiter at the ball if you don't know the etiquette? The answer is badly. Regardless of your diplomacy or balance checks. The diplomacy might get you out of trouble after you've upset someone, but it won't keep you from being detected as a spy.

Sure you can swing an axe all day long against orcs, but do you know enough about felling trees to mingle with the lumberjacks without alerting the bad guys/monsters that there's an imposter?

You might be the proverbial horse whisperer, but do you know enough about working as a stablehand that you can walk in and steal the lord's horse without anyone noticing the extra person in the stable?

And finally, you may be a dab-hand at disguises, but do you have the bluff and profession skills required to actually fool anyone that you're Ringo the master brewer?

As with all rules in all editions, skills are what you (the players) make of them. If you choose to ignore the possibilities and uses presented here, it is little wonder that you think that they're useless.

 

[vagabundo]

For my paladin/poet PC, I'm using alternating between Diplomacy and Intimidate checks to represent his Dragonborn love poetry (which combines lyricism with thinly-veiled threats of violence).

lol, I like this a lot, I'm sending this on to the dragonborn fighter in my group. He has already decided that Dragonborn are basically Klingons and this fits right in.

 

[Wicht]

Add another vote to those that greatly appreciate the presence of crafting rules in 3e. I like being able to know, at a glance, whether a PC is a better blacksmith than an NPC. The removal of the crafting rules is one of the unselling points of 4e to me.

3e profession, I think most would acknowledge, could be done better but, as a concept, I'm still glad thats its in the rules.

If I was going to rework profession, I think that what I would do is create a list of three or four skills that are interelated and if the character has those specific skills he has the skills for that profession. Then weekly profession rolls could still be made and the bonus would be an average of the skills involved. That way as well, if there is a specific circumstance where a roll is needed then the relevant skill could be used but for a more general, how much money in a week, the average of the skills would be used.